AnnMiura-Ko

LubaHi everyone. Today I'm talking to the one and only Ann Miura-Ko, the co-founding partner of Floodgate and a professor at Stanford. I love Ann's story of ruthless pursuit of curiosity to find her life's work and something that she could be world class at, and she is so full of wisdom of how to live life, how to pick founders, how to spot potential. And we talk a lot about how Floodgate has evolved, how she has evolved as a person, as an investor, her passion for debate and passion for AI-pilled companies, and so much more. So excited for you to listen to this conversation, and let's get to it.Link

And thank you so much for taking the time. I'm really excited to talk to you. You have such a fascinating career and so many...Link

AnnThank you so much.Link

Luba...so much wisdom and so many interesting thoughts. So I'm excited to dive in.Link

AnnYeah, absolutely.Link

LubaI am curious to start with your famous debate background.Link

AnnSo it's famous, but...Link

LubaYou've given a lot of conversations, and debate is always brought up. And there is one funny story where you were making students cry for a slice of pizza. I'm really curious, what exactly did you do to make people cry? Like, what was the technique? What was asked of you?Link

AnnSo I think my strength as a debater was just pure logic. And so I felt like the one thing that I could do was figure out how to corner an opponent on how they were explaining their position, and make pretty evident any kind of contradiction that might exist in their logic. And so I felt like I was really good at doing that. And the more aggressive you could be, especially in the situation of, like, a cross-examination, then that would oftentimes really fluster an opponent, and gave me the opportunity to either make them cry or make them at least feel like they had already lost the round in that moment. And I think that was sort of a really empowering thing for me.Link

LubaSo you were like, hell yes, I got it, I'm going to get a slice of pizza. It was that competitive spirit that was elated.Link

AnnWell, I think that the point of that story, and sometimes why I bring it up, is that I think a lot of times for women, we are told to be agreeable all the time, that we're told that part of our nature is actually to create peace. And because I had really young coaches, we had basically freshmen through seniors, like undergraduates at Stanford, who were coaching us, they didn't suffer from that same belief, and they felt that it was okay for us to be aggressive.Link

And so I think one of the things that was interesting to me was that it was the first time I got this permission to be a little bit disagreeable. And I don't think I'd ever received that permission before. And to me, that was really empowering in a way that was unexpected to me, and very powerful to me as well.Link

LubaWhat are some stories, after you've gotten that permission to be disagreeable, of that skill really helping you in your career?Link

AnnWell, I think it plays out actually even within how we discuss at Floodgate what we see, what we think is true about a company. I feel that our organization is really truth seeking, and we seek it from not only the partnership, but we seek it from the associates who work within our team. We seek it from other people who have been exposed to that idea. And it could be anyone from a, you know, high school student to an operator to one of the partners within our organization. But we don't think of it as titles. We don't think of it as expertise. We're looking at it through the lens of who's been curious enough to ask the right question. And for us, I think that's the way it gets exposed, is we have a very debate-oriented culture around how we think through ideas, and I really appreciate that about Floodgate.Link

LubaHow can you tell the difference between truth seeking and defending someone's thesis?Link

AnnOh, I think so. This is a really good question, actually, because I think some people get into the mode of wanting to defend their position. And so I would describe that as more ego driven, right? So, I have been right in the past, or I said this thing was true, and so my reputation is staked on the fact that I am right. Versus someone who's truth seeking doesn't think of it that way. They think that by seeking truth, their position is ultimately elevated, if that makes sense.Link

LubaBut wouldn't you say that if the foundation of it is elevating someone's position because they're truth seeking, in a way that's still connected to ego?Link

AnnI think ego is more about "I am right," versus the truth exists outside of you. And so it actually has to be disconnected from ego.Link

LubaThere is a lot of conversation about ego these days, which I love. I feel like you always should try to be low ego and seek the truth and try to learn and get feedback and understand someone's point of view, and not try to do things for your own merit and good. But how can someone actually recognize that they have a large ego and they need to work on their ego? What is the practice of dropping your ego?Link

AnnI think it's being in environments, and supporting environments, where anyone can disagree with you. And so if you are in an environment where you believe that everyone agrees with you all the time, that you have a lot of yes people around you, then it's probably an indication that you haven't cared enough about truth seeking. Versus if you live in an environment where that disagreement, or the fact that someone will call you out on something, is actually encouraged, then you know that that environment fosters truth seeking.Link

LubaHow often do you think someone should be aware to check what environments they're in?Link

AnnI think you should always be checking. And I think the more, I don't know, celebrated you become, or the more people say you're smart or interesting or you figured it out, the more you should be paranoid that you no longer live in an environment that fosters truth seeking.Link

LubaSo you're obviously someone who is celebrated. You have a really fantastic career as an investor, as an educator. When was the last time when you had to check yourself and recognize that your beliefs are potentially not right and you need to examine that?Link

AnnSo I try to do this on a very regular basis. So as an example, I have a chief of staff consistently who is someone who recently graduated from college, or graduated, let's say, within a year or two, in the last five years. And the thing that I'm always trying to coach that person on is the balance of agreeing with me and disagreeing with me. And so if someone is always saying, yes, you're right, or is always saying, that is a really great idea, I will very explicitly give them feedback that they need to confront me with what they think is wrong about my position. And it's a constant coaching to get them to feel comfortable doing that.Link

LubaThat's awesome that this is something that you give direct feedback on constantly. Has there been some fundamental disagreement that really made you reevaluate your beliefs, that led to some sort of breakthrough for you personally?Link

AnnI think a lot. One of the things I really value about my partners around me, I'll specifically name, you know, Mike Maples was probably one of the first people that I worked with where, from day one, he treated me as an equal, and he was unafraid to agree and disagree with me.Link

LubaAnd just to give some context, at the point when you guys started working together, when he co-founded Floodgate with you, how much more experience had he had in investing?Link

AnnWell, he had already been an entrepreneur whose company had IPO'd, and he had been angel investing for about three or four years. And I had worked for five years and then come back for a PhD, but I had been in that program for, you know, five years. And so for Mike and me, there was actually, you know, an eight-year age gap, but also professional seniority, which he definitely exhibited. And so the fact that he would treat me as an intellectual equal was actually, I think, to me, very unprecedented.Link

LubaI want to come back to debate. And something that I've listened to in my research is that your husband tells you that life is not debate, and that you shouldn't be trying to win in debate with everyone. I'm curious, when have you internalized that, and when do you treat life as debate? So obviously in your investing career, I'm sure there is, as you said, a lot of debate. But when does it make sense to not debate?Link

AnnYeah, I think this is a struggle that I do have, because I love to argue with people. I also think, whether it's a good thing or not, it's how I also explore ideas. The thing that I think I have to constantly work on, and I don't think I've done the best job at it, is that recognition that other people don't explore ideas in the same way. And so sometimes there are people for whom debating an idea feels personal, or has all of these sort of negative emotions associated with it. And so to me, I feel like that's not something that's natural. And so I have to think about that constantly.Link

LubaAnd how do you determine in which way someone wants to explore an idea?Link

AnnI think that's the hardest part. Sometimes I'll ask. But I think, as an example, if you work at Floodgate and you can't work in that sort of verbal way, it's probably not a good fit. So it is something that we ask people about. And so, as an example, if your primary way of communicating is through a written mechanism, then oftentimes that person is not... they don't love debating a topic or winging the conversation. They want to come in super prepared, and culturally that may not work.Link

And so I think you have to know for yourself what type of environment you will flourish in. And for some people, that is more of a prepared written communication style. And then for others, they do better in sort of this verbal sparring mode. And so I think it's a combination of: we have to be aware of how someone else works, but that person also needs to know how they work.Link

LubaSo take me inside of your brain. When you are presented with an argument or with an idea, you prefer exploring it through speaking. Versus, you know, there's this overall belief that writing makes you a clearer thinker. And a lot of people are like, okay, you should actually write things down before saying anything, to really understand how you think and what you think and why.Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaIs that purely through speaking for you, or do you still write also?Link

AnnI definitely do write as well. I think there's definitely a role for written communication and written processing. I think, though, the speaking mode of wrestling with an idea allows you to do it in a more casual frame, and so you could get through more ideas, and you could get to the processing of information faster, I think, when you use sort of a debate format.Link

LubaYeah. If someone who's listening is not very good at debate and wants to get better at it as an adult...Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaLet's say they don't have access to a debate class to go to. What would you recommend them to do?Link

AnnI think there's some really excellent books. So when I was a kid, I read, there was a negotiations book, *Getting to Yes*, that was quite good. My son is currently reading a book, I think the title of the book is *How to Win an Argument*. But there are these incredible books that talk about how people in history have structured arguments, and how they have built their own way of speaking and arguing for their position. And so I think there's lots of resources now. I think there's also great YouTube channels like that.Link

So I think that actually back when I was learning, you had to find an expert. And for us it was Stanford students, because we had no coaches. But I think today the beauty of it is, you decide you want to learn something, you really just go buy a book. You could buy a book, watch a bunch of YouTube channels.Link

LubaAnd then for your son, he read the book, and then is he practicing it with someone? Because I feel like consuming information is one thing, but especially for debate, you better practice.Link

AnnI don't know, because he's in the process of reading it right now. I saw him reading it yesterday.Link

LubaGot it, got it. So TBD what the process is going to be.Link

AnnExactly.Link

LubaSo throughout your life, you've often heard that you were average, at the beginning of your life, before you found what you wanted to actually do.Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaI'm curious, does that voice still talk to you at all?Link

AnnNo. You know, it's funny, I've talked to my mom a lot about this in terms of, like... there were always some things that I was really good at. I was a little bit unusually good at piano when I was a kid.Link

LubaDo you still play?Link

AnnI still do. Not enough, but I still do. And I knew from that experience, oh, like, I already have this baseline that's well above what other people can do, and then the discipline of practice then extends that. I also realized pretty quickly that there were other places where tests would hide my real capability.Link

LubaAnd can you give me an example?Link

AnnYeah. So in elementary school, in order to be part of this, like, gifted and talented program in California, you would take an IQ test. And every time they gave this IQ test, I would be distracted by something that the test administrator was doing. And so every time, the actual score would be not great. And so, first of all, my mom would advocate for me in a way that I just think was really difficult to do. But she just sort of believed, and she would advocate for me every year.Link

LubaWhat do you think gave her that belief? Was it just, like, regular Asian parenting, which is like, my kids are the best?Link

AnnI don't really think she thought I was necessarily the best at that point. She definitely thought I was kind of a strange kid. I would really get into something and then just devote a ton of time to it. And so I got into roller skating for a little while.Link

LubaThat's cool.Link

AnnLike, really good at roller skating. And then I really got into debate later on. And, like, I would be sort of a self-motivated kid. And so my mom believed in that, and so she wouldn't give me the story that everyone else would say, which was like, oh, she's fine, but she's not a great student. And so the story she told me was, you're exceptional at math. Doesn't matter what everyone says, you're exceptional. You're an exceptional student, you're an exceptional pianist. And so that sort of compounded on itself until it actually became true. And so, you know, I think a lot of it is, you do need someone who believes in you, because sometimes it's hard to believe in yourself.Link

LubaYeah. Do you think you should tell people that they're exceptional when they're also clearly putting the work in? Because I worry that if someone's just like, oh, you're so amazing, you're so smart, you're exceptional, but then there isn't really a lot of track record, it could also backfire.Link

AnnI think so. I don't know. I do struggle with this idea of, like, everyone is told they're special now. Because, to a certain degree, my mom would tell me I'm special, but she would add a huge dose of reality to whatever I was always doing, right? And so she would be my biggest fan, but she would also be my biggest sort of source of realism. And today I do encounter a lot of people who've just been told they're so special their entire lives. And so resilience comes from knowing that you have the capacity to break through trials and things that don't go well, right? And so I think that is something that you need to learn. You need to be told that's possible, too. And I think that that is an important part of that story.Link

LubaWould you say that when you were looking for that thing that you would be uniquely good at, you were looking for, like, your life's work? Because you had a lot of track record for dedicating enough time to something and then becoming really great, but then you still kept kind of winding your way to find what you're doing now, which is investing.Link

AnnSo I think finding your life's work is a combination of: what are you good at? What do you like to do? And what is valuable in the world?Link

LubaLike ikigai.Link

AnnRight. And so it has to be that combination. If no one cares about the thing that you are really good at and you love to do, then you'll have purpose, but you won't have, like, the true sense of purpose, which is having impact in the world. So to some extent people have to care about the thing you're doing. And so it is that combination of, what are the things that you're good at?Link

And a lot of students that I work with, they'll say, you know, what am I really good at? And some of it is very subtle, right? I think a lot of students are looking for, you're a really good writer, or you're really good at singing. And sometimes it's not as obvious as that. Even if I look at my own personal strengths, they were more subtle. So I discovered that I really both loved teaching and could be innovative at teaching, and I could take things that I saw in the real world and then translate that into product or information that students could ingest.Link

And that is a skill that also translates actually into early stage investing, right? Because as an early stage investor, I can't build the thing. I can't do the thing. But I'm talking to the founder as sort of a teacher: I've observed the world, these are some of the things that I'm seeing, and you might take that into consideration when you are building the thing you want to build, right? And so all of those gifts sort of are built upon the strengths that I have and how that's valuable in the world.Link

LubaHave there been any strengths that you've discovered recently that you weren't aware of? Or do you think there is a moment when you were like, okay, these are all my strengths, and now I'm riding the wave of applying them?Link

AnnI think that's a good question. I think AI probably changes the way in which your strengths manifest and how you could take advantage of them. I think one of the things that I actually am good at is taking kind of disparate ideas and pulling them together. And right now AI makes that even easier, and allows me to take two very different ideas and have a partner in exploring how those are connected.Link

LubaIs there a recent example of when you did that and you were like, oh, wow?Link

AnnWell, some of this work that I'm doing on how AI-pilled companies are just different in the way they operate is a place where I've been using some of these ideas. So as an example, when we first started Floodgate, the general idea was actually that the world of startups was really changing, because the way in which startups built their product had shifted because of cloud computing. AWS had launched in 2006, and there was a lot of open source software that was now available at the time. And so it meant that instead of raising $5 million and selling 50% of your company because you had to buy servers and proprietary software, you could actually now really just go ahead and build and use public infrastructure, right? And so that actually really changed the way in which companies were not only built, but the cost at which it was built, the people who were involved in these companies, how many employees were needed.Link

And so we're seeing the same thing happen. Because back then there was this whole idea of what a lean startup actually would look like, and there were new ideas about how you would test the hypothesis of a company. You would go out to the customers much earlier, you would talk to them about what you were building, you would get that feedback and incorporate it into the company and into the product on a real-time basis.Link

Well, AI actually really changes that, because the amount of information that you're getting in real time from your customers, from the industry, from sales prospects, you can incorporate that directly into your product, your business model, how you operate, in real time. And so we really think that these disparate ideas of how we saw Lean Startup forming in the early days is now going to be replicated, but in a totally new way, with AI-built companies. So that's an example of how we're sort of taking these different ideas and tying them together.Link

LubaThat's really cool. I want to come back to this idea of finding the work that you're built for. Do you remember the specific moments when you were like, oh, wow, I'm built for this, I love this? You know, the ikigai intersection is happening.Link

AnnI'll tell you a few times where it didn't fit, and so, like, it gave me a clear sense of what it might feel like when it does fit. So a few times. So one was, I was studying for the MCAT, and I thought I was going to be a doctor, and I had thought that for many years. I thought that being a doctor is such a noble profession, and so that's the career I wanted to have. But I was at a hospital at some point and realized I wasn't suited to be a doctor. I didn't love memorizing things, and so the whole medical school process felt very artificial to me. The hospital environment was not something that I really loved. I also don't like structure, right? And being a doctor basically implies a lot of structure. It has to. And so it felt like that was not the right calling for me, just the description of what the job is.Link

I then thought I was going to be a lawyer. I even got into law school. I was getting ready to go, and my boyfriend at the time, now my husband, had his first internship in law school.Link

LubaAnd is he still in law?Link

AnnHe's not. He never practiced law. But in that first year, in that first summer, he's in this, like, amazing summer internship where basically they're wining and dining you. This is as good as it gets when it comes to this job. And when we looked at the actual nature of the job, it's very detail oriented and very literal in many ways. That initial part of the job, what you do as an associate, was so ill-suited to me, and the way I like to think, that I knew immediately that that was just not going to be a fit.Link

And then when I fast forward to then being in grad school. So I'm in a PhD program, and the natural thing to do in a PhD program is then to become an academic, right? And as I'm sitting in my office as a graduate student, two or three years in, a person walks in and introduces themselves, and they're actually going to be across the hall from us. And he is a professor. He's a new professor, newly minted professor. And in our conversation, I realized that, because I was out of school for five years and then came into my PhD program, this guy had gone straight through, but he was my age. And when I took the seminar with him and I just sort of saw how his mind worked, I realized that if you're an academic and you're world class, that's what it looks like. And I felt like I had a lot of gifts, and I could be a pretty good academic, but I would never be a world-class academic the way he was.Link

And so I remember at this point my dad said to me, like, you have actually a lot of gifts. There has to be something out there in the world that you do world class, where you can actually be one of the best. And so it's a matter of finding it, versus just giving up and deciding that you're going to try your hardest at something that you're not that great at, right? And so for me, falling into venture was a really opportunistic thing. I had actually been in venture right before I came back to my PhD.Link

LubaAt CRV, right?Link

AnnYeah. And so I kind of knew what it was. But this opportunity to reinvent venture was totally new. And so that became a big opportunity.Link

LubaWhat role do you think luck plays in, not you personally, but anyone finding their calling and finding their life's work? Because you could have kept, you know, going and trying things, and it wouldn't be exactly it. And maybe you would have confirmed, it was okay. Well, maybe I can find it.Link

AnnThere's a great book by Tina Seelig. It's a new book on luck, and so you should check it out. But some of the ideas that she has in there, I think, are really important. One is, there's a difference between fortune and luck. Fortune is something that you don't have any control over, the circumstances into which you're born. You're very fortunate, right? But luck is something that you can actually play a role in. It doesn't mean that there's no randomness, but you can increase the surface area on which luck falls by doing some things proactively.Link

Some of it is just the basics of good manners. You write thank-you letters. You know, you write emails that are easy to forward. You just do sort of basic hygiene in how you interact with someone. You create value for other people and don't expect anything back. You are increasing your surface area of luck. And so I believe that I was very lucky. I was also quite fortunate. But I also did a lot of things to maximize the possibility that things might happen.Link

LubaHow are you maximizing your surface area for luck right now?Link

AnnOh. So one thing is, I continue to do things that aren't necessarily strategic, with just sort of ROI in mind. So I love to teach, and that's something that I'll continue to do. I think that actually by mentoring people and teaching them how to operate in the world, and, like, giving your Rolodex to people, introducing them to other folks, that I maximize my chances of luck.Link

I also work really hard. And so as someone who's almost 50, I don't just sort of ease up on the gas pedal. I am constantly trying to be responsive to people who connect with me or who need something from me. Especially our portfolio company CEOs. If they're asking for something, I try to get back to them in a way that, like, shows that they matter. And I think that's just sort of important for most relationships. And then the last piece is, I'm constantly learning. And so I feel like part of maximizing your luck is also being someone who's always curious about the world. And so that's something that I really believe in.Link

LubaI want to obviously talk about Floodgate, because you've been building Floodgate for almost 18 or almost 19 years now.Link

AnnYeah. 18 years.Link

LubaInsane.Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaSo at the beginning, you guys have done a lot of non-consensus things, like, you know, the Thunder Lizard, or micro VC, which now are very orthodox.Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaWhat are some non-consensus things that you are doing right now, working on right now?Link

AnnYeah. So a few things. One is, a lot of the firms that have grown up in our era or even beyond, as they get successful, they have grown their fund size. One of the non-consensus pieces is that we have continued to remain, relatively speaking, small. And so we have not grown our fund size, I think, in three or four funds. And most people would say that's very non-consensus, because as soon as you hit a little bit of success, you would grow your fund size quite significantly.Link

Our non-consensus belief is that it allows us to actually provide incredible cash-on-cash returns to our investors. And so we've proven that with our ability to provide real DPI back to the investors that we work with. And on top of that, I think what it does is it allows a $1 billion outcome to really matter to Floodgate and our investors, versus being a way to return a very small percentage of our fund. And so those are things that we've studied. Those are things that we've actually demonstrated. And we will continue to be excited about that.Link

LubaI love your point about playing offense and defense, because somewhere I've read or listened to that you think that not losing is not winning.Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaHow are you playing offense as an investor right now?Link

AnnYeah. So a few things. One is that we have our own sort of differentiated perspective around how we believe companies will operate in the future. And we think we see it because we are so early stage, and we have a number of companies that are operating in a totally different way.Link

LubaCan you give me an example? What are some ways that they operate in?Link

AnnSo we have one company, as an example, that has an agent that goes through all of their data and can actually pinpoint something factual that someone says, right? So they'll say something about the product that they think might be true. Well, the agent will pick up on that, validate whether or not that's actually correct, using access to data. And then if they believe it's going to be impactful on the business, that agent will actually do something about that analysis. So if it believes that the product could be improved by creating an offshoot of that product, and it believes that it could sell through more of that product as a result, it will actually make and implement that product change.Link

LubaThat's cool.Link

AnnAnd then deliver it to the team that is supposed to analyze whether or not that product should exist.Link

LubaAnd is it usually smaller changes, or is it large changes as well?Link

AnnIt could do any number of things. And so we've seen it identify, like, millions of dollars of credit...Link

LubaWow.Link

Ann...that needed to be applied. So that was one example. It can do smaller things, like a split, a shift in half. And so it changes. But I think the thing that's been really interesting is that, you know, this is a company that's not an AI product company, and...Link

LubaJust using AI for...Link

AnnBut the company uses AI in some of the most innovative ways.Link

LubaThat's really cool. So one thing that comes to mind with respect to that is, what do you think is the balance between blindly following data and following your intuition? Like, in your experience as an investor, has it always been the case that at a company, data is always right?Link

AnnNo, I think so. So that's the art form of being a founder or a CEO.Link

LubaAnd that's why I'm like, if an agent just blindly makes changes without consulting someone...Link

AnnIt won't blindly make changes. It will send it to a pod.Link

LubaOh, so someone has to approve it.Link

AnnSo there's always a human that does the approval.Link

LubaGot it.Link

AnnBut if you could have a tireless agent that is constantly analyzing information and providing you with proactive feedback about your strategy or your current state of affairs, or will notice things that you hadn't noticed before, that is a superpower, 100%.Link

And I think the thing that's most difficult about how you set this up is not just the engineering that's associated with it. The engineering is actually very simple, and I feel like it's solved now. The hardest part is actually, how do you get groups to interact with one another? How do you get designers to work with engineers and product people? How do you get marketing lined up with engineering? How do you get sales to deliver information that the customer just said to you to the product person, and then have the product person take that as real feedback from direct interactions with the customer, and figure out how to incorporate that into the work that they're doing? I think that kind of interdisciplinary way of working with an agent, or having an agent work across disciplines, is actually really, really hard.Link

LubaYeah. That sounds...Link

AnnAnd so we've only seen a few companies doing that. And the thing that I think we've become experts at is really understanding and teasing out how it's being done at the forefront today. And I think we know more about that than almost any other firm.Link

LubaAnd for someone listening, if they want to have this AI-first or agentic-first way of building their company, making real-time decisions on real-time data, how would they get started with that?Link

AnnI think, so, there's some things that I've already written, so you can find some of my writing at NVC.Link

LubaOkay.Link

AnnThe sort of first step that I've noticed with all of the companies is that they are exposing their data to the agents, and then they're also exposing it to all of the other people in their organization. So whether it's Vercel or fairly non-technical companies, one of the first steps that we've observed is that they will create some mechanism by which anyone within the organization can actually query the database in natural language, and it turns it into a SQL query.Link

LubaThat's incredible.Link

AnnAnd almost everyone goes through this process. And then what happens is that the whole organization sees that as a superpower, and all of a sudden they're sending requests to understand data in a new way. And by doing that, they are now at the forefront of understanding their business and being able to create new experiments directly. And then the next thing that they'll demand is, well, then, now that I know what's happening, how do I do something about it? And then that creates this need for other organic products.Link

LubaAnd from everything that you've seen, what separates the founders who decide to take this AI-first mentality versus the ones that don't?Link

AnnI think it's paranoia. I think that it's not... you know, some people said, oh, maybe it's age. But I have, you know, 40-something-year-olds who are extraordinarily AI-pilled and have pushed their organization in that direction. And I have 20-something-year-olds who are operating companies that look exactly like it did in 2023, right?Link

And so I think there is sort of this knowledge that there is going to be a new way of building a company, and they want to participate in it. And so they are modeling it themselves. So they are curious about what are the tools that they should be using. They are figuring out how to make their organization more legible to AI. They are then using agents in new ways internally for themselves. And so I have yet to see an organization where the CEO didn't care and the organization is AI-pilled. It's always the CEO. The CEO cares really deeply about it, and the organization itself starts to operate in that way, and individuals start to own that mentality.Link

LubaSince you said paranoia, it makes me think of competition, and the fact that I think you describe yourself as incredibly competitive. How do you compete right now? What is firing you up?Link

AnnOh, I think, I mean, it's always that opportunity to work with amazing people. You just want that experience again. And so I think I have the paranoia that there's someone out there who hasn't been discovered, or who we haven't discovered yet, at least, who's building something that matters. And I want to know who they are.Link

LubaAnd on the investing front, have there been any investments recently that really reshaped how you think as an investor and picker?Link

AnnYeah. So my very first investment out of the last fund, our most recent fund that we're still currently investing out of, is a company called SmarterDx.Link

LubaThat's the one that exited, right?Link

AnnYeah. And so it exited in three years.Link

LubaFor over a billion.Link

AnnFor over $1 billion. And it's sort of a combination of AI, health care, revenue cycle management. And so a few things. The first is, when I first met with them, and even at the Series A, I couldn't get investors interested in this company. So most people told me revenue cycle management wasn't that interesting. They said that they thought that the market was too small. And so, you know, the Series A really went to an investor who had already studied the market and knew it deeply enough to understand why this company was different. So that was interesting to me, in the sense that you don't have to constantly be chasing hot companies. Or even if your company is not hot at the Series A, that doesn't mean that fundamentally it's an amazing company.Link

The second was that with a $1 billion-plus exit, we actually returned more capital than I had even invested out of the fund.Link

LubaWow.Link

AnnAnd so this goes back to this notion of, if you have the right-sized fund, then a $1 billion outcome, which is actually really meaningful to the founders, can be equally meaningful to us. And so if we want to continue to have a fund that is really aligned with founders, for whom that kind of outcome is life changing for them, and it's actually a meaningful exit for us, we are proud of the fact that our fund construction continues to do that. We're not just founder friendly in the sense that...Link

LubaAs long as you're building a $1 trillion company, then we're founder friendly.Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaHow can founders dissect what type of founder friendly the investor is? Is it just literally looking at their incentive structure, and what size of funds they have, and what amounts they invest?Link

AnnYeah, I think a lot of it actually is about their strategy. And I think for an investor, your core strategy is revealed by the size of your fund, right? And so I think what most founders don't realize is that if you have, you know, a $100 million fund, then if you want to be one of the top funds, you're really trying to 3x your fund. If you're competing against the S&P 500 that's ripped, you're probably trying to go for a 5 to 7x fund, right? So that means you're trying to return somewhere between $300 and $700 million back to your investors.Link

If you assume that at exit I own 5 to 10% of the company, let's say 10% to keep it clean, in order to return my $100 million fund three times over, I'm looking for a $300 million outcome. That means that I'm looking for a $3 billion valuation, right? That's the point at which it's like I'm returning three times my fund. So if you are a founder and you had a $100 million exit, and you took money from a $1 billion fund, you can only imagine how that is not scratching the surface of what that fund needs, even though that might actually be a game-changing exit for you.Link

And so I think founders need to be aware of what the incentive structures are for the investors that they're bringing on to their cap table, and what value those investors bring. And sometimes there's a little bit of a trade-off. Sometimes you can learn a lot by just talking to other founders who've taken money from those VCs. And I think there's, like, a whole way of understanding what it means to be in a relationship with that investor.Link

LubaWhat kind of investor are you when you are on someone's cap table? What do founders come to you for? What are your superpowers?Link

AnnYeah, so I think a lot of people are hiring Floodgate in general, even though I am sort of the main person on the investment. And what people oftentimes come to me for is just sort of brutal honesty about where they are with their company. And so they're seeking out sort of the Asian tiger mom on some level. I study a lot around what it takes to get to product-market fit, what we should measure, what that looks like, why you're there, why you might not be there, what is it going to require for you to get there. So those are things that I really care about.Link

A lot of people are also interested in working with Mike Maples, because he's incredible at category design. And so even if you take money from me, you're taking money from Floodgate, and so you get that. Mike Heller has worked a lot in go-to-market, and so you get sort of this go-to-market engine when you work with him. And so those are the superpowers that come along with us.Link

LubaTell me a bit more about Mike Maples' category design. What does that actually mean, and how has that shown up in some of the portfolio?Link

AnnI think for us, what we believe is that category design means you're not just making a product or an organization, but, like, the best companies actually create a completely new category. And so if you think about a non-tech example of that, we oftentimes talk about the 5-hour Energy drink. And so the 5-hour Energy drink is a shot glass.Link

LubaYeah. So you guys had Magic Mind in your portfolio too, which is kind of like an extension of 5-hour.Link

AnnThe 5-hour Energy drink is really interesting because the guy said, if you're tired, you're not necessarily thirsty, right? And so he took the form factor of what is typically a drink and shrunk it. And so I think what's really interesting about him as a character, and sort of category creation, is that he decided he wanted to be in a totally different market and area.Link

And so he creates a totally new beverage, right? And so because it's a new form factor, it's not going to sit in the beverage aisle. It's going to sit in the cashier's area. So I think when you're successful at category design, you're actually in a new area of the storefront. You own a very different shelf, right?Link

So that's something that we think about for startups as well, is that startups actually will look different and operate differently, and can actually create a totally new, different category. So Lyft is a great example of that. Lyft didn't just sort of replace taxis. They actually created this new category of peer-to-peer ride sharing. And it was so novel that when they first launched, it was illegal. They couldn't charge money for it, so they had to ask for donations.Link

LubaWow.Link

AnnAnd so the idea that you aren't just starting a company, but actually designing what that category looks like, is actually really important.Link

LubaAnd I feel like that's very true for how you structured your career, because you, you know, with your talents, almost, like, picked your lane and carved the path for yourself. So it's like you've defined the category.Link

AnnYeah. I think when we first got started with Floodgate, I think there were, like, four to six other firms doing what we were doing. And there was not actually a stage called seed at that point. We used to call it a micro VC.Link

LubaYeah.Link

AnnWe didn't know what it was going to be called. So a bunch of folks would say super angels or micro VC. And so eventually it sort of settled into this sort of seed category. And I think that that's sort of the way in which we operate, which is sort of, you want to have an area that other people aren't in, so that you can actually be differentiated. And if you're different, this is something that Mike often says, if you're different, you don't have to be better. You don't get trapped in the comparison trap. And so you can play your own game. And so for us, you know, when we got started with Floodgate, we didn't have to compare against other folks. We were defining the rules of our own game.Link

LubaI remember you saying that Mike Maples is an incredible storyteller, and that was something that really differentiated him from people that you've interacted with. So I'm curious, how has your own relationship with storytelling and marketing changed over the years of working with him, and what has he taught you?Link

AnnOh, so much. I think with Mike, though, trying to be a storyteller the way he's a storyteller is almost impossible.Link

LubaWhat kind of storyteller is he, if you could describe?Link

AnnThe way he strings together words, it's not logic based. It's very emotional. And so my partner Iris and I will often say, if we just wrote the things that he said on a piece of paper and then read them out loud...Link

LubaThey wouldn't make as much sense as if he were saying it.Link

AnnNo one would think that it sounded right. You know, it's because of the delivery. The way he sets it up, how he plays... He uses his own emotions to actually develop that story. I think it's really special and it's really unique. He is also very precise about the words that he uses. Versus I care a lot about making sense. You know, I care about the details of the argument. I care about whether or not it is right. And...Link

LubaThat's the debater in you.Link

AnnYeah. And it's probably, like, the engineer in me too, right? I'm trying to engineer what's the correct solution, whereas Mike is trying to engineer a feeling. He's also just a brilliant product person, and an incredible optimist. And so when you pull those things together, he's thinking about not what is in front of you, but what could be.Link

And I think the thing that I learned most from him is this idea of the possibility, is that he's an incredible optimist. So, you know, if you're using your logical mind and you're listening to a seed stage company, you're going to hear all of these things that are wrong with the business. But if you are in this optimistic mode, then you're going to think about what could possibly be at the end of the road. And I think that's a really important mindset to have as a seed stage investor.Link

LubaWould you say he taught you that, despite, you know, him being, probably, it sounds like, more emotional? Optimistic?Link

AnnOh, totally. Yeah, totally.Link

LubaDo you think with storytelling, you got to lean into your own strengths and into your own vibe? Or is one type of storytelling better than the other?Link

AnnI think, you know, I will always say Dave Chappelle is an incredibly talented storyteller, and if I could tell stories the way he does, I probably would want to. But, like, I think there's a limitation on talent on that front, right? Like, I think it just takes a certain kind of mind to do certain types of storytelling. And I think you do have to lean into your own style and your own way of operating.Link

LubaSince you were talking about Mike's emotional way of telling stories, it reminded me of my conversation with Leah Solivan, the founder of TaskRabbit, and that, you know, you made the decision to invest in TaskRabbit based on the feeling of calling. Like, I'm called to make an investment, you decided when you met her.Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaSo do you currently make investments based on this feeling of gut and calling? And how much? What is the art of investing for you right now?Link

AnnGood question. I think the role that gut plays now is much more on people. And I think over time I've really honed my instincts around how people operate, who they are, and what types of ways in which they think and engage in the world, and what makes them exceptional. And so, because at pre-seed and seed there's not a ton of evidence as to what that person is working on, and if there's ever going to be traction. And so the hope is that you're investing in people who will learn, and who will build, and who will change directions when it's needed, but also will have the tenacity to make it right. And so to me, that's actually much more art than science.Link

LubaAnd what are you usually looking for, and what does that process look like? AKA, how much time do you spend with the person to learn about how they think? What are, I don't know, the stories you're looking for?Link

AnnYeah. There isn't a certain... I know there's, like, investors who say they really want, you know, some childhood drama or something. Yeah, that's definitely not my shtick.Link

LubaOr I heard someone say that they only invest in someone who came from, like, a family of one parent, because of that childhood trauma.Link

AnnYeah, I'm definitely not like that. I think that I am really looking for someone who understands and knows what exceptional looks like. They've seen it somewhere in their life. The second piece is, I'm really looking for someone who is a super thinker, so really curious about the world. And then the third is someone who is a super builder. So they need to love building so much that if you told them, you have to scrap this thing that you built and you have to rebuild it again, they're really excited to do that, because they just love the process of building.Link

LubaAnd is it an overlap of these three categories, or is it one category each that could be okay?Link

AnnWe're looking at all three of those in the founding team. It is never in one person. So we're looking for a couple, two to three different people, who exhibit all of these three characteristics within that founding team. And the way we sort of look at it is, we're asking actually for their journey. So instead of the pitch being, this is the thing I'm building and this is why it's interesting, what I want to know is, how did you get to this point? What did you start off with? What did you throw away? Why did you throw it away? What do you think you're going to change about this at the first opportunity? What are you going to double down on? What are you convicted by? Those are the things that I want to understand, because it gives me a sense of how much this person has thought about everything that they're building.Link

LubaSo obviously, as an investor, you are making a bet on founders and their ideas. And in your career, there's been a lot of people who have made a bet on you. And I'm curious, who have been the people who have made a bet on you in the last 18 years, over the history of Floodgate? So not in your earlier career years, but in your later career years.Link

AnnMore and more currently?Link

LubaOh, probably... Probably the last, let's say the last ten years.Link

AnnOkay. So a few people. One would be actually Tom Byers, who is a professor at Stanford, and he's given me all the teaching opportunities that I have, and I think...Link

LubaAnd how did you actually start teaching? What's the story of...Link

AnnSo as I was getting my PhD, I started taking a bunch of classes, and that turned into teaching. And then I've sort of stayed with it ever since.Link

LubaGot it.Link

AnnSo, yeah, I've been teaching ever since. And so it's been almost 20 years of teaching.Link

LubaWow.Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaSo Tom Byers. Who else?Link

AnnSo he's one. I would say actually, to be totally honest, it's every time, I think, a founder takes a check from us...Link

LubaThey're making a bet.Link

AnnThey're making a bet on us. And so I give a lot of credit to the founders that we've gotten to work with, because it is equally a bet on them as they are making a bet on us, especially at this stage of investing. It's so early and so formative, and the relationship is actually quite important.Link

LubaYeah. For sure. And how do you spot potential in people, whether it be your students, or whether it be, you know, maybe people who are junior to you?Link

AnnYeah. I have always liked seeing people who, as I said, have seen something exceptional in their lives. That they've pushed themselves to a point where they have gotten to see something, an environment where the best are working on something together. So I see that actually in a lot of the students that we work with. That could happen academically. That can even happen in their extracurriculars, right? And so, what kind of extracurriculars are they working on? I like to see sort of, are they following their passion, or are they following the script? And I vastly prefer someone who is following their passion versus the script.Link

LubaBut is it passion or curiosity? Because there is, you know, the debate of, do you follow your passion, or do you start with something and then figure out that that's your passion?Link

AnnI think it has to be a little bit of both, right? Like, if you've just followed curiosity and not finished something, I don't think you've seen excellence. In order for you to actually see excellence, that curiosity has to transform into passion, and a lot of times obsession, in order for you to see and know what excellence actually is.Link

LubaHow do you teach your kids excellence?Link

AnnI mean, it totally remains to be seen if we have. I think part of it is actually being very demanding as a parent. So my parents were very demanding of me, and I think I've been very demanding of my kids.Link

LubaWere both of your parents very demanding? But each in their own way?Link

AnnIn their own way.Link

LubaWhat was your mom demanding of, and what was your dad demanding of?Link

AnnMy dad was more the silent partner. He would help support. Like, if I needed rides to different things, he would come in and do those things that needed doing. My mom was the one who would find the best teacher. She would find the best program. She would actually sit down and teach us a bunch of things. Later on, as things became more advanced, my dad was more the teacher. But I think my mom was more vocally demanding. She was the one who would say, you know, you have to practice piano two, three, four hours a day. My dad never said that, but he was there to take me to piano practice, right?Link

LubaSo do you feel like, as a parent, you had to unlearn how you were parented? Or did you take a lot of things from your own childhood onto your own family?Link

AnnNo, I probably took a lot from my childhood. My mom now lives with us, so she's part of that picture.Link

LubaYeah.Link

AnnAlthough she just says yes to my kids all the time. But I think, yeah, we have different styles, I think, because, on one hand, my parents were first-generation immigrants from Japan, and so they were hungry in a different way. And I think, you know, when you grow up in a very middle-class existence, there are trade-offs, right? So when I was playing piano, my piano teacher told me we needed to get a grand piano, and we couldn't afford one. And so my dad decided not to get a car.Link

LubaOh, wow. To get you the piano.Link

AnnTo get me a piano. And he drove a Toyota Corolla, which had literally no options. I was describing this to my kids recently. No radio, no automatic power windows, no AC.Link

LubaWow.Link

AnnI mean, literally had nothing in this car, and he drove it for 25 years, because he wanted to get me a piano, right? And I just don't think our kids will face that kind of sacrifice. And so it's hard to fathom that... the relationship I have with piano is transformed because of that experience and that sacrifice. And I think it's hard to manufacture that.Link

LubaHave you ever asked your dad why he did that? Why he didn't get himself a car, to get you that grand piano? And let me explain why I'm asking that question. So to me, it feels like getting your child to be really amazing at playing the piano is not the most practical thing to make that sort of sacrifice for. But perhaps there was something else that he was trying to teach you through playing the piano.Link

AnnI don't know if he was even teaching me anything. I think he wanted to give me the opportunity to succeed. And I was actually at that point pretty good at piano, but I had an upright, and the teachers were all saying, hey, if you really want her to get better, she really needs to have a different kind of piano. And I think he saw the commitment that I had, and felt like he was also invested in that. I think that's where it came from. But I don't know, I never asked him.Link

LubaSo it sounds like he just wanted you to have opportunities to reach your full potential.Link

AnnI think so. It's like, for me, I still have this piano.Link

LubaOh, amazing. Wow.Link

AnnAnd a lot of people say, oh, when are you gonna get, you know, a Steinway or some other fancy piano? And it's like, this piano, I can't ever replace, because it's a story, and it's a sacrifice, and it's a representation of, like, our family.Link

LubaWell, that's an incredible story. We started our conversation with debate and disagreeing, because usually, especially for women, it's very common to be taught to be very agreeable.Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaWere there any other things that, through the environments that you were in, you were untaught, and given the permission to be different?Link

AnnI think so. A couple of actual examples of that. One is, when I was starting college and I decided electrical engineering was my major, there were no women actually in my major. And I complained about it to my mom, and she just refused to feel sorry for me. She asked if I wanted to find friends, and if I wanted to find friends, then I should just do that in my dorm room, and not in a classroom setting. And it taught me this idea that just because there aren't people like me in an environment doesn't mean that I shouldn't do it. And I think that was a really important lesson, because I think a lot of people will peer into a room, see that there's no one that looks like them, decide that they're not welcome, and leave. And I think my mom's refusal to accept that as an excuse made it difficult for me to escape, right? And so I appreciated that.Link

I think the other place where it was interesting was, even when I was first starting with Floodgate, I remember there was always this moment where someone would say, oh, there aren't that many women in venture capital, right? And back then it was really true. There were just a handful of real managing partners in firms. And so I was always seeking out, are there more women in these different rooms? And I was thinking about that, and thinking about what my mom had said in this electrical engineering class. And at that time, I remember Mike said to me, it seems like that's a superpower. And he transformed this, like, way of looking at the world of, I'm not seeing other examples that I can follow, and other guys get to see examples of people they can follow, and I don't get to do that.Link

And the first time it really manifested was, there was a conference I really wanted to go to, and they were really prioritizing entrepreneurs and not VCs. And the founder of this conference actually said that to me. And he said, oh, we get a lot of feedback that people don't want more VCs in the room, they just want more entrepreneurs. And I wrote back, and I said, that's funny, because I can't imagine people saying that they want less women in the room. And he wrote back with an invitation to that conference. And so it was sort of this manifestation of, like, okay, this thing that I thought made it more difficult to be in the room is actually a way to stand out and to be unique.Link

LubaWhat do you think gave your mom that idea to push you? Because, I don't know, for instance, in the current environment there is so much conversation about belonging and seeing other examples of people who are like you. And a lot of people are very scared of being in environments where there are no similar types of people.Link

AnnYeah. And I think that's always the case, though. Like, you kind of want to see people who look like you, because then you know, oh, those people have been already accepted. And so part of being a trailblazer is to decide that maybe you are okay being different, and that you're okay not having those examples for you.Link

LubaYeah.Link

AnnI think in some ways, my mom, you know, she'd come to the United States where we have no family, and she just saw it as an adventure. And so maybe to her, like, it's natural to be in an environment where you don't see people like yourself.Link

LubaDo you see life as an adventure?Link

AnnYeah, I think so. I mean, I think there's so many twists and turns and interesting characters and accidental happenings.Link

LubaYeah. What are you trying to make out of your personal adventure in this chapter?Link

AnnOh, so I'm turning 50 this year.Link

LubaWow.Link

AnnAnd this is my year of saying yes.Link

LubaOkay.Link

AnnAnd so I think...Link

LubaThat's why you're on this podcast. Yeah. Thank you for saying yes.Link

AnnI feel like when you're starting out your career and you have kids and a family, you're so busy in every facet of your life that you get into a habit of saying no and curating the things that you will say yes to. And by the time you hit 50, it's a habit. It's not a necessity. Your kids are older. They can actually survive for a few hours without you. But you have this habit of saying no. And so the thing that I think about now is, if one of my friends contacts me and says, hey, you want to go to breakfast? The answer is always yes. If someone says, do you want to hang out on this day? Yes. Do you want to go on a girls' trip? Yes. I think, unless I have a really good excuse, I'm trying to say yes.Link

LubaThat's incredible. Have there been any interesting realizations about yourself or your life, or opportunities that came out of this yes mentality?Link

AnnYeah. You definitely have to keep making friends, you know. I don't think, like, making friends stops when you're at a certain age. And I think some people think, you know, all the friends that you'll ever have, you make by the time you're 25, and then, like, you're constantly curating them out. I think for me, it's been, you can actually make amazing friends later on in life, have amazing connections, and learn from so many different types of people now. And so I've been really enjoying it.Link

LubaI think the whole perspective of "you can only make friends at a certain point of your life" is the same perspective as, do you want to continue changing and evolving and growing, or are you kind of closing opportunities on yourself in different chapters of your life? And so similarly, it's like, oh yeah, you know, you can move to a different city, or you can find a new group of friends, through one friend find another friend, and learn something new about yourself as well. Have there been any friendships that have changed your life recently?Link

AnnYeah. I mean, I have a group of female executive friends who sort of really popped into my life over the last, like, three or four years.Link

LubaIs it through YPO?Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaNice. I think Leah has talked about that.Link

AnnYeah. And for me, I think those are really unexpected connections, because it's not just with those women, but their husbands are equally amazing, and they're friends with my husband.Link

LubaThat's really fun.Link

AnnAnd so, you know, we'll travel together now. And so I think that possibility, to me, has been really game changing.Link

LubaThat's incredible. I heard you say that happiness is purpose and belonging.Link

AnnYeah.Link

LubaWhen did you find both?Link

AnnI think I found belonging really starting in college. I felt like maybe in high school, junior high, I was a little bit more on the outside. And in college, I just found a bunch of people who were my people and who understood me. Those friends are really important, because they've always known me, and they've always loved me, and they've always accepted me, and they've always expected a lot from me. And so I love those friendships. They keep me super grounded.Link

And then purpose, I would say, I think I found it really in the latter half of my PhD, when I decided, hey, you know what? I'm not going to be an academic. But wow, I really love teaching. And wow, I think there's a new way of building companies, and maybe I'll teach a class on that with Steve Blank. And then, wow, it feels like there might be a new way of financing companies, and nobody else seems to notice that except for this handful of people. Like, we're in this, like, secret club together, and we're going to go make it happen. And that felt like real purpose.Link

And so I think, yeah, probably about 20 years ago, I really found that sense of purpose, and then it renewed when I had kids. So my oldest now is 19. It's a very different kind of belonging and purpose that you have when you have a spouse and kids, and certain things become more important and other things become sort of less important or urgent in your life, and you develop perspective.Link

LubaYeah. It's funny that I feel like in the Valley there is always this conversation of, do founders prioritize finding a family, do they not? I don't know if you've seen the meme of "single until Series A..."Link

AnnI have strong opinions about that, that I even talk to my students about.Link

LubaOh wait, please share.Link

AnnSo I have told my students that if you have the opportunity to find someone that you know you're going to spend the rest of your life with, you should start it as soon as you can. And I think a lot of people think about, well, I'm going to get married later, and I'm going to first do this with my career, and I'm going to first do these things, and then I'll have kids. And they get into that moment and they realize, like, not a lot of this is planned.Link

But more importantly, there's actually never a good time to have kids. No matter when you have kids, it will kind of suck. But it'll also be all kinds of wonderful. And if you're young, you can really handle it, and if you're older, it'll be tougher. And I think the timing, almost, you know, people will find their right person at their time. But to put it off because of career, or things that you want to accomplish right now, I think is a dumb reason to pass on the opportunity to commit to someone, to have a family.Link

LubaWell, so in some way, I think it's too much over-indexing on the future, over which you don't really have any control.Link

AnnAnd so I actually tell my students, if you've been with someone for six months and you know that they're not the one, to break up with them.Link

LubaYeah.Link

AnnI think it's respectful to do that.Link

LubaHow does someone recognize that they want to build a life with someone?Link

AnnI think, you know, I think if you know that you don't want to, then you should definitely break up with them. But I see a lot of people hold on to someone, right? It's just kind of comfortable, but they're like, I'm probably not going to be together forever, but...Link

LubaBut it's fun to do them.Link

AnnKind of fun now. And, like, we should just stay together. And I think that's a really bad reason.Link

LubaYeah, 100%. I just have a couple of last questions. You mentioned that anyone can build their world-class life. What is your world-class life?Link

AnnMy world-class life is being able to pursue my curiosities, to constantly learn, to spend time with my family in incredible experiences, which mostly involves, like, swimming in relatively warm bodies of water. And spend time with my husband, actually doing things with him, like hiking or running, eating really good food.Link

LubaYay!Link

AnnAnd then actually being able to take care of my mom and Albert's mom in ways that make them feel loved and respected. That, to me, is a great life.Link

LubaThat sounds incredible. That sounds like a very well-balanced and amazing life. And what are you still becoming?Link

AnnOh, I think I am still becoming a learner of the world. So I think I'm always steeped in tech, but when I learn about the world outside, the world of art, the world of science, I think I become a more complete human. Beethoven actually wrote this manifesto about becoming the complete man, and I think a lot about that, of, like, what does it mean to be a complete human?Link

LubaThat's incredible. Thank you so much, Ann.Link

AnnThank you.Link

LubaIt's amazing. Thank you.Link