JoeCohen

LubaHi everyone, we're at Infinite Machine, a New York-based startup designing electric vehicles for a post-car future. We're going to meet Joe Cohen, one of the co-founders, who's going to show us a tour of the factory, how the prototyping works, and tell us more about the process of building up Infinite Machine and the two vehicles that they're currently shipping. Let's go.Link

Joe, so I've heard you describe that business for you is a medium, and you went from building in education, then in fashion, in software, and now in vehicles. So I'm curious, what is it about you that keeps you wanting to make things?Link

JoeI think I'm very curious, and I think that for me a company is a way to explore an idea, and hopefully to explore many ideas. And the set of skills to create companies, I believe, is pretty generalizable. Every company has its own domain expertise, its own technology, its own particulars, but I think at the end of the day, you've got an idea, you've got people, and you've got resources. And my job is to kind of put those things together: identify a compelling idea, get the best people in the world who can actually make that idea real and push it further, and then make sure that we have the resources we need to do it.Link

So for me, I'm motivated by the creative act, by making things. I love to build, and it is in and of itself fulfilling, right? So, yeah. I mean, and I'm building this company with my brother, and we share a similar framework on this stuff. And for us, like, we call the company Infinite Machine because we're really interested in this idea of the infinite game.Link

LubaLike the book? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the book.Link

JoeSo, like, there's this book called *Finite and Infinite Games*, about, like, a finite game being a game where the goal is to win the game and to beat another player, whereas an infinite game, the purpose of the game is to keep playing. Success is being able to keep playing the game at higher and higher levels. And that's very much how I think about our work, our life, and it's just the approach that we take to it.Link

LubaYeah, I love that framework, because it really makes you think about life and the world not in this competitive, finite landscape, but in a playground.Link

JoeYeah, exactly.Link

LubaIt's very positive-sum. At which point did you decide to take on this mentality? Was it always the case, or...Link

JoeI think I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur when I was a little kid, technology entrepreneur, but...Link

LubaHow old were you?Link

Joe12.Link

LubaWow. Why? Did you watch something, in a...Link

JoeNo, no. Actually, I grew up in an entrepreneurial family, but very, like, old-school entrepreneur. So my grandfather is a great entrepreneur in the apparel industry. My mom is an amazing wedding planner. My dad ran a family business. And so I grew up around business as kind of a tool. And then just as a kid, I was really interested in computers and in the internet, and I realized that I could pair this, like, instinct that I had grown up around business with my interests.Link

And then, you know, when I was like nine years old, I discovered Apple, and my parents got me an iMac, and it was like the translucent Bondi blue iMac, and that thing totally rocked my world. And then I learned more about the company Apple, and I was just extremely inspired by this institution that was creating these radical machines that were enabling people to do new things, but they were also a great business. And I was like, I want to do that. Like, that's what I want to do.Link

And so then I, you know, I went to UPenn, I went to Wharton undergrad, really with the lens of, like, I want to learn how to start a company. While I was there, I realized you don't really learn that at a traditional business school. I started my first company while I was there and dropped out. And I'll tell you that with my first company, I was incredibly driven to build a successful company, but I had yet to connect with, I think, what we're talking about, which is this more generative, I would say even, like, egoless creative act, where it's not really about, you know, like a material success, but really about making things, and making things with people, and doing it at increasing levels, and really connecting to, like, why I was interested in making this stuff.Link

I also have a belief that, I want to say, like, I think that creativity and commerce are bedfellows. I think that if you can figure out how to make money making great things, then you're going to be able to continue making great things. So, like, commercial success is really important, and it's the enabler for creativity. And, by the way, great creativity fuels commercial success. These things go hand in hand. They're often thought of as opposites, but I actually think that when you get it right, they're feeding each other. I think we're doing that here at Infinite Machine, and I, you know, I hope that we continue to do that. And so we're very commercial, we're very creative, and we're unapologetic about both those things. So, yeah, that's how I think about it.Link

LubaDo you consider yourself an artist, a capitalist, or maybe an artist-capitalist?Link

JoeYeah, definitely. Both. I mean, I'm an artist and a capitalist, of course. I mean, I think, you know, I'll say that the people who inspire me, they're often people who are artists, and they might not be fine artists, but they approach their work through the lens of an artist, which is to say it's personal. They give a shit. Like, they want to make incredible things, and the thing itself is the motivation. It's not, like, for some accolade or an award or for some scorecard. It's like, no, the thing is motivating. And yeah, I think that's true for the great artists. It's like they're motivated by the work, if that makes sense.Link

LubaYeah, you're motivated by the process versus motivated by just the outcome of that process, and what it's going to give you, and what type of accolades you're going to receive.Link

JoeExactly. Or I try to be.Link

LubaWould you say that was the case for you with Universe? So you were building Universe for about seven years, and it ended up being a website builder.Link

JoeYeah, it was the case for sure. Yeah, like, I was very much driven to build a tool that was empowering to people to build their own ideas. So it was very much an expression of my own worldview, and how I think that the world should work, which is that people should have the freedom to create the things that they imagine using technology.Link

LubaYeah, it seems like that's a very clear through line in everything that, you know, in my research, I've seen you build: accessibility and freedom.Link

JoeYes.Link

LubaWhy do you care so much about those two things?Link

JoeI think, you know, like, I crave freedom. I want to be able to live a really big life. I want to be able to create, I want to be able to explore, I want to be able to build relationships and see the fullness of the world. I think we only get one life, and, like, I think that we should use it.Link

And, you know, look, I think also I'm an American, right? Like, and I think that the ethos of freedom is, like, core to the culture here. Like, why does America produce the best entrepreneurs, often the best artists, the best innovators? It's because we have a culture of experimentation and freedom and autonomy. And I think these things are even more and more relevant today as technology autonomizes more and more stuff. I think that we have an opportunity to really usher in, like, the golden era of humans, which is a little counter-narrative, where so much is about the replacement of humans. And I think these tools are ultimately tools. They're going to enable humans to be better humans. The tools should at least do that.Link

And so I don't know. I don't have a great answer for why I'm motivated by, like, a desire to be completely free and work at the pace of my imagination and do things that I can only think of. But, you know, as much as I think I'm a product, I think it is a nature and nurture thing.Link

LubaFor sure. Would you say that's the case for your brother too, where he is really excited about this idea of freedom and giving people tools to express themselves, and express, in this case, their ways of moving around the city?Link

JoeFor sure, yeah. I mean, I think we're really interested in the idea of the autonomous human.Link

LubaRight.Link

JoeAnd, you know, for Infinite Machine...Link

LubaTell me more about what does that mean, to be an autonomous human.Link

JoeAn autonomous human is someone who has agency. They are able to kind of do life on their own terms. They have an idea, they make it real, they're drawing outside the lines. And that could be, like, big and small things. It could be big things like starting a company, it could be small things like taking a different route to work. Like, you're coloring outside the lines, you're doing life on your own terms. That's what excites us. And I think we try to live our lives that way, but we're also attracted to others who do that. We've assembled a group of people who do that, and we want to enable more people to do that, because we think the world would just be a lot better if more people were doing life on their own terms. So, yeah.Link

Yeah, so this customer was telling me that the reason he loves Alto is because it enables him to go places he never otherwise would go. And I love that, because, like, that's why we made this. It's like, you live in a place like New York, it's magical. The best restaurants in the world for every cuisine, the best artisans, the best everything. But, you know, your freedom of transport is the limiting factor on what you're going to experience. So if you have a tool like Alto, like, you can go anywhere. If you're like, I want to try this ice cream, or I want to go meet this person, or I want to go take a lecture somewhere, it's possible. So freedom of navigation is, like, ultimately, you know, it's about the freedom to kind of build the life that you want to live, and it opens up new experiences and new possibilities for you.Link

So that's how I think about it. Like, to me, exploration and creativity are two sides of the same coin. Like, the ability to explore enables new creativity, new creativity enables new explorations. And, you know, Universe was really about the creative side of that equation. Infinite Machine today is about the exploration side of that equation.Link

But I'd also say that, you know, the competency that we're building at Infinite Machine to make electric vehicles is generalizable. So an electric vehicle is a software-controlled electromechanical machine that moves through the world. That competency will scale to other form factors, other vehicles, as well as other kinds of products, and we're going to do that. And so we're really interested in tools that augment people, that give them superpowers in the physical world, and we're just getting started with our first two vehicles.Link

LubaI love that. So what's an example of the next evolution of Infinite Machine? So from vehicles, what's the most obvious thing that you could go to?Link

JoeI can't share specifics right now. However, we are on the precipice of a revolution in how AI will manifest itself in the physical world. Sometimes that's called embodied intelligence, sometimes it's called robotics, and we are really interested in that area. And a lot of the work that we have done, both technically and physically, as well as the knowledge and competency that we have to manufacture, service, distribute, that all scales extremely well to robotics. And so that's an area that we're really interested in, and we're probably not going to do what people think we're going to do in that area.Link

LubaInteresting. Okay, I love that. Tell me a bit more about the start of Infinite Machine. So you started the project on nights and weekends with your brother initially. What led you to start thinking about the idea?Link

JoeWell, we always wanted to work on something together. We love vehicles, because vehicles are, like, in some ways, the ultimate product. They're, like, technology, design, power, freedom. They're, you know, I don't know, we just love that, you know. We've always loved it since we were little kids. And motorcycles, cars, scooters, new stuff, like, it's just... We felt like it was really important for us to go off on our own first, so to have experiences where we built our own companies.Link

LubaSo it was an active discussion. You were like, "Hey, we're gonna go our own way first, get our own..."Link

JoeYeah, I'd say it wasn't, like, super explicit in the beginning, but became more explicit.Link

LubaWhy was that important?Link

JoeYou know, we're two years apart. We grew up together, obviously. I think it's important for people to individuate, and I think to develop, like, their own skills. And, you know, I'm older and I got started earlier, and I just felt like, I personally believe in, like, partnership, and, like, real partnership. And so I just didn't want it to feel like there was a real gap in knowledge or experience.Link

LubaSo you would have to really be mentoring him, holding his hand at that age.Link

JoeI think that it's important to, like, work with someone who, like, yeah, is truly a partner and you respect at that level. And I think the opposite is true for him too. Like, I think he feels that way similarly.Link

And also we went in different directions. So, like, I went the software route, raised venture capital, built big teams. He started a direct-to-consumer physical products brand that bootstrapped. They didn't raise $1 of venture. And so those skill sets are actually really complementary, because, you know, I'm good at, like, thinking really big and getting the resources we need, to just think in an abundance mindset about, imagine it's all possible.Link

LubaYeah.Link

JoeWhat would we do? And Eddie's developed the skill to say, oh, how do we take this dollar and make it go really far? And so I think both of those work well when you're trying to build a vehicle company, where, you know, the expectation is it's really expensive to do that, right? Like, and to your point, like, we've been able to bring two vehicles to market in two years with a seed round of capital and 20 people.Link

LubaYeah, that's crazy.Link

JoeThat's cool. Yeah, so that's both of our skill sets together.Link

LubaWould you say that both you and your brother are really design-oriented, and have been for your entire lifetime? Because I checked out Eddie's company, and it also seems incredibly focused on details and elevated experience, and bringing a product to market that didn't exist in the category before, and is also kind of very Apple-esque, if I may make that parallel. Where does this attunement to design come from?Link

JoeSo Eddie and I are both entrepreneurs, but we're also both designers. We both studied design. He went more of the industrial design route. I went more of the graphic and UI route. But I think that we're both, like, medium-agnostic. We are both excited about designing all kinds of things: vehicles, structures. And we like both. We like the business side of it, and we like the design side of it, and we like the business as a way to bring the designs into the world, you know. My mom is a designer, we kind of grew up around creativity, and so I think that's probably a little bit where it comes from. I don't know, though. I think there's an innate quality to it too. My sisters are also designers.Link

LubaWow, that's amazing. Usually siblings kind of go down different paths.Link

JoeYeah, well, so my two sisters... It's me, my brother, and then we have two younger sisters, and they work with my mom as wedding designers and events. So yeah, I guess.Link

LubaDo you guys often clash or argue about design decisions, and how does that work?Link

JoeIt's a good question, actually. So I'd say that, you know, we're best friends, and starting to work together was very natural. And I'd say that we agree on, like, 98% of things, design-wise, sensibilities-wise. We do sometimes disagree, and we've gotten a lot better at how we disagree, both, like, creatively, but also just operationally. I think the operational side is, like, easier to resolve, because there's usually an answer. The creative side, at some point, sometimes you get down to, like, intuition and feelings.Link

And that's, I think, why we're able to do good work. It's because we have a lot of the same sensibilities and feelings about stuff, so we have very similar tastes. But sometimes it's, like, that 2% that diverges. But I actually think that we're way better for that, because I think either of us, totally, like, without an editor, is not the best version of ourselves as designers, if that makes sense. So, like, sometimes we divide and conquer internally when we need it. Like, especially early days, like, I was doing a lot of the graphic design.Link

LubaYeah.Link

JoeI'm checking everything with Eddie, meaning, like, I need an eye. I need someone to kind of, you know, you always need an editor. So we role-play, where we switch off, like...Link

LubaSo you would say that the 2% where you disagree, you've learned a way for how to convince the other?Link

JoeLike, oh no, not only convince. Like, sometimes if one of us doesn't like something, like, when it comes to creative matters, like, we don't do the thing. Like, we kind of have a veto on both sides, which is, like, you know, we've learned that, and, like, how to have a discussion around design. And we've been working together now for two and a half years, and I think we've gotten a lot better at it. And, you know, we put a lot of work into how we work together.Link

LubaGot it.Link

JoeWe have a coach. We talk a lot about our process.Link

LubaOkay, so for someone listening who's trying to figure out what type of co-founding relationship they want to build and how to build a good foundation, would you say coach, talking a lot? Any other tips?Link

JoeCommunication is the most important thing. I think that it requires a commitment first to the work, which is to say, like, my relationship with Eddie is the most important thing to me. Beyond any specific project or thing we're working through, our relationship is my top priority. So I create a lot of time and put a lot of work into that. And I am dealing with things that are often uncomfortable. Like, you don't want to have these conversations a lot of the time, but it's really important to do it, and to put the work in, and to do the coaching sessions, and to follow up, and to be emotionally vulnerable.Link

And so I do think there's tactics, like, you know, an end-of-week meeting that we have, where, like, one of the things we learned is, you know, during the week, there's a lot of topics that come up, and some of those we're talking about in flight, but sometimes, like, there's not really a good place to talk about it. So actually, Eddie developed a... he vibe-coded an app. We call it the C2 app, and it's basically...Link

LubaLike C2?Link

JoeTwo Cohens.Link

LubaOh, got it. Cohens. Nice.Link

JoeAnd so we have this, like, running list of discussions, and then at the end of the week on Friday we go through the list. But we also give each other feedback, and it's a forum to say, hey, like, that interaction we had on Tuesday in a design review was not really feeling great. Or, like, when we're looking at the financial model, like, I thought we should have been thinking about this. And it's a space that's removed from the, you know, the day to day, that we can be a little bit more circumspect. And, you know, the table stakes are, like, trust only works if you have, like, absolute trust.Link

LubaSo how were you able to build up this trust with your third co-founder, Zach? Obviously, you don't have this history of a relationship with him. What did it look like?Link

JoeI think we're very fortunate that Zach has very similar values. And so we didn't put the pressure of being co-founders on the relationship from the beginning. Like, for the first three years of collaborating...Link

LubaFor the first three years?Link

JoeWe were not co-founders.Link

LubaWow.Link

JoeWe were just, we were proto. We were, like, in side-project mode for three years. Yeah, so during that mode, Zach was just a collaborator. And then we decided, okay, like, we're gonna be a team. And I think for Eddie and I, we realized that in Zach we found someone who had very similar values and sensibilities, and also, like, from a skills perspective, brought something totally different to the mix. And I mean, Zach is the person who enables us to, like, dream, because he's a wizard. I mean, Zach, like, we like to say Zach makes renders real. You know, we have this crazy idea and, like...Link

LubaHe makes it happen.Link

JoeZach figures out a way how to do it. And, you know, we've got a lot of cool new stuff cooking in that respect as well.Link

LubaThat's awesome.Link

JoeYeah, I think it has developed. And also, by the way, you know, we have another working group, me, Eddie, and Zach, and we meet up also on Fridays. We get lunch every week, and we talk about everything. And so it's just active maintenance, you know. It's not, like, taking anything for granted. I'm probably more of a stickler than anyone about this stuff. I'm just very proactive about having difficult conversations, and, like, you know, so if I feel a certain way, I will tell you.Link

LubaYeah.Link

JoeWithin 24 hours, like, you know. And I think it's just very important.Link

LubaRight, 100%. I mean, these are the people that you have to be making such important decisions with. So that prior relationship is important.Link

JoePart of why I do that is I'm trying to model how I hope people work with me, which is to say, like, they're honest. Yeah, they share their thoughts and their feelings, and, you know, I don't take that for granted.Link

LubaTell me a bit more about designing the culture of your team. Obviously, you came from the software background, Eddie came from a bootstrapped kind of, like, hardware company as well. How do you guys think about putting together a team, creating a certain culture? Are there a lot of parallels between how you were building teams before and this team?Link

JoeYeah, I mean, we hire people who take initiative and have a great attitude. So they're positive, they're excited. They don't, like, they don't ask for permission, per se, to do a thing. They don't need someone to help them, they just figure stuff out. So they're very autonomous, they're very, yeah, exactly, they're very, like, self-sufficient. They are low ego. That's very important to us.Link

LubaHow do you test for that?Link

JoeYou can see it in how people talk about what they've done, and, you know, what motivates them, and what they're looking to do. I think it's pretty basic tells if someone is, like, putting themselves above the work. And then we try it. You know, a lot of people on our team, we started with, like, lower-stakes engagements, so trials or freelance relationships. I would say over half the people that we work with did not start as full-time employees, and we still do that.Link

LubaHow long is the trial?Link

JoeUsually depends on the person, but a month, six weeks.Link

LubaAnd they work for free on a trial, or they're paid?Link

JoeWe always pay, but, like, it's a way for both sides to, like, feel it.Link

LubaYeah.Link

JoeYou know, yeah.Link

LubaSo, yeah, basically those principles for building the team. Anything else that you feel like transferred over from your previous experiences?Link

JoeYeah, I developed, like, a style, I guess. And there's things like, for example, one of the things that we do is on Fridays as a team we do a show-and-tell, and it's opt-in. So anyone can share something that they've worked on from the week. That could be, like, a visual thing, like an engineering model, but it also could be, like, a document or a report, or, like, a sales process. And it's a way to kind of have, like, cross-team visibility.Link

Like, I'm a big believer that everyone should know how the company works, like, the full company. They don't need to be an expert in venture capital, or, like, they don't need to know, like, how mechanical engineering works, but they should be able to, in their own mind, reason about how Infinite Machine works. I think if I were to rationalize why that's the case, it's the kind of company I would want to work at. Like, I wouldn't want to work in a company where I felt like I was a little cog in the machine, focused on my narrow thing. I want to work at a company where I get how my work fits into the larger puzzle. And, you know, we hire curious people, and so we should feed that curiosity.Link

And, by the way, for the company, ideas come from everywhere. So often in those meetings people are reacting and ping-ponging, and before you know it, like, someone in engineering had a marketing idea. So I'm a big believer in this, like, cross-disciplinary exchange. But that's one thing that I started doing at Universe that we carried over. The one-on-ones, the format for one-on-ones, so, like...Link

LubaWhat's the format for one-on-ones?Link

JoeWell, just, you know, kind of gathering discussion items in advance and keeping a log. Basically, we've been using AI a lot, so, like, we use Granola.Link

LubaYeah.Link

JoeLike, we're kind of obsessive with Granola, and, like, using our meeting transcripts as, like, a queryable thing. So we're pretty, like, try to, like, document our thinking. We're always iterating, though. Like, for example, you know, in our leads meeting, which is, like, you know, kind of people who run each function, we do, like, a departmental update every week, and that's a written update from each leader, and going through their update. And then we realized, like, it's taking a lot of time, and it's just, like, inefficient information transfer.Link

LubaRight.Link

JoeSo what we do instead now is we do the, like, Amazon 15 minutes heads-down reading, and then we discuss. Like, we're always tinkering with the formula, and, like, taking a kaizen mindset to how we work.Link

LubaTell me a bit more about your own process of nurturing creativity. Do you have set hours set aside where you have, like, a time block for thinking or being creative, or what does that look like?Link

JoeI try not to take meetings before 10am.Link

LubaOkay.Link

JoeIt's a time for me where I'm pretty generative, and I, yeah, I mean, like...Link

LubaWhat does generative actually look like?Link

JoeI just have ideas, and you...Link

LubaWrite them down?Link

JoeWrite them down, sketch them out. I think also, like, we create spaces for it, so, like, design syncs, like brainstorms. And honestly, it's one of the things that we, and specifically Eddie and I, have had to work on, which is, you know, there's so much nuts and bolts of company building that we need to create space that's uncritical and more generative. Because, like, if you think about it, the nature of our conversations, especially because we're not only co-founders but brothers, it's like we can mode-shift. Like, we're talking, like, it's 10 o'clock at night, we're talking about a family thing, and then we're talking about an order, right? Like, so it's all mixed.Link

And I think some of that's great, because it's like, we like that, we like that it's blended. But sometimes you have to name it and create a container for a certain kind of thing, otherwise you're not gonna get that. And, you know, I think for us, we like to do it more ad hoc, which is like, hey, we're working on this project, let's set up 30 minutes to brainstorm it. And that will usually start with, like, a prompt and maybe some pre-work where someone is presenting something. So I'd say, like, we're developing, like, a skill set to go into different modes.Link

LubaYeah.Link

JoeIt's enabling for getting into that headspace.Link

LubaThat makes sense. So you've raised venture for multiple companies at this point. I think it was 47 million for Universe, and then 9 million or so for Infinite Machine.Link

JoeYeah, 14 million for Infinite Machine.Link

Luba14 million. What was harder to pitch?Link

JoeEvery round is different, but I would say on the whole, I mean, we're still early in the Infinite journey. We've only raised one institutional round of capital. But hardware is hard to raise capital for. Investors, especially, like, Silicon Valley, who are primarily software investors, they don't really know how to evaluate hardware businesses. That is changing, because AI is eating software and eating up the opportunity in software. And so just like Eddie and I kind of shifted into the hardware world, that's where opportunity exists now. That's where alpha exists.Link

So that's changing, but venture investors are more comfortable with de-risked demand. So, for example, when you're selling to companies or selling to the military, it's very predictable demand. But if you're building a consumer product, it's harder, right? Because you're basically saying, hey, we're gonna make this thing, like, we think people are gonna buy it.Link

LubaYeah.Link

JoeBut, like, there's risk associated with it. So VCs, in the main, are uncomfortable with that kind of risk. Some people are comfortable with it, and I think that's increasing. But for us, I'd say the first round was challenging, but at this point we do feel like we have the wind at our backs. And people are starting to recognize, as we've proved out the commercial side of our business, the opportunity, and not only in our current business, but how the platform that we built can basically scale, pun intended, infinitely.Link

LubaYeah. How did you pick Andreessen and the American Dynamism team to work with?Link

JoeI mean, they were at the top of our list. They basically started this fund to invest in American companies that are focused on American renewal, which for us is really, like, bringing the dynamism that exists in the digital world to the physical world, right? And they have an amazing office here in New York. Our partner, David Ulevitch, started that office. I got to know him actually while I was building Universe, because he comes from a software background. So when we were thinking about the landscape of potential investors, they were just at the top of the list, and they've been amazing partners for us.Link

LubaWhat are some of the specific things that they've done?Link

JoeThey just have great resources. I mean, it's all the stuff that people think about with Andreessen, which is, like, a large team that's there to support you. It's real. Whether it's financial support, or, like, meaning, like, helping us navigate debt, or, you know, getting in touch with people at Meta or celebrities, like, they're really good at connecting you with people. So if we need to get in touch with someone, I can fire off one email, and chances are they're gonna be able to help us get in touch with that person, which is, like, extremely valuable.Link

LubaYeah, 100%.Link

JoeYeah.Link

LubaWhat's been the hardest thing so far, building Infinite Machine?Link

JoeThere's three existential risks of this company, and at any one point, one of them becomes more intensive than the other. So there's product, there's sales and marketing, and there's operations. And at any one moment, one of those is more pressing than the other. So: can we make a great product that people love? Can we sell these products? And can we manufacture them? Can we service them?Link

You know, we're right now in the middle of our manufacturing push, so that is the thing that's consuming me more. We're backordered on sales, so we're really kind of de-risking supply at the moment. But sometimes I feel a little bit like a firefighter, where, you know, we're running from fire to fire, but making progress along the way, and triaging what needs to be solved now versus what could be punted.Link

LubaDo you have any stories of, you know, something that almost didn't work, and then you guys made it happen?Link

JoeConstantly. I mean, I think right now, because we're in the manufacturing world, like, you know, with Alto, almost all the parts are custom to that vehicle. So, like, we have a specific battery connector that we designed, and it's made in India, and, like, that was a long pole, and was blocking the whole production, because they were stuck in testing. And then we got through that.Link

And then, you know, we anodize these panels, and in our previous production run, like, we figured it out, it was working. And then we started to do it at a larger scale, and we were getting streaking on the metal, like, an unacceptable amount. And so we needed to go chase down different anodizers and get to the factory and do it. And, like, we got through that, but that's a decent one. So there's a lot of stuff like that.Link

LubaYeah. How do you manage your own stress? Do you...Link

JoeMeditate every day.Link

LubaOkay.Link

JoeI work out every day. Those solve a lot. Relationships, friends, you know? I prioritize my own, like, self. Even when I'm not in the office, I'm, like, thinking about, you know, this is the top priority in my life. So I am making sure that I'm resourced, you know, while I'm performing, so to speak. Which is, like, yeah, I go to sleep early. The basics, the basics, you know. I try to eat well. Like, you know, I'm not, like, partying all night. Like, things matter, yeah.Link

LubaOne of my executive coaches once told me that being in good health is a part of your job as the CEO.Link

JoeI mean, I think about it a little like, you know, professional athletes, right? How much of their time are they actually playing? But all the stuff around playing is so important. Like, they're working out, the way that they eat, how they're sleeping, like, how they're training. Like, all that stuff is as important as the actual performance. And so that's not really talked about that much in our world, but I think it's really important.Link

LubaIt's super important. How did you get into meditation? Was it inspired by your brother, or was it independent?Link

JoeIt was independent. As long ago as 2013, I was living in San Francisco.Link

LubaFrom 2013 you've been meditating every day? Are you serious?Link

JoeYep.Link

LubaThat's crazy. You've never missed a day?Link

JoeI've missed a day, actually. So...Link

LubaAnd wait, wait, is it, like, two-minute meditations, or an hour long?Link

Joe20 minutes. But when I started, it was 10 minutes a day, and it was really fucking hard.Link

LubaYeah.Link

JoeIt was, like, the hardest thing.Link

LubaHarder than the losing of...Link

JoeReally hard. And I was very, like, compassionate with myself about it, which is to say, like, I could do it anytime, anywhere, but it was really difficult to do. And I realized that... So one of the reasons I started to meditate was that I realized I had OCD, and that I'd get, like, obsessed, and, you know, get into these loops. And there's different treatments for OCD, but one of them is mindfulness meditation, which is obviously, like, not medicinal, which I like. But I realized I was getting a little bit obsessed with my streak, you know, like, not missing a day. And I was like, okay, I feel like I'm getting attached to the idea of not missing a day, and the whole purpose for me of, like, the meditation practice...Link

LubaTo heal your OCD, or help out with your OCD.Link

JoeTo, like, be able to detach, right? And not be attached to things. And so, yeah, like, intentionally, like, sometimes I'll be like, "You know what?Link

LubaIt's okay.Link

JoeToday, like, it's okay." The meditation practice cured it.Link

LubaWow.Link

JoeYeah.Link

LubaWhat does that mean in terms of OCD? Like, you don't get obsessive anymore?Link

JoeWell, no, you get obsessive. But, like, OCD is obsessive-compulsive, right? So the obsession is, like, your mind fixates on something. And, like, there are some, like, healthy obsessions where, like, it's fine. There's sometimes where everyone has, like, intrusive thoughts, and for whatever reason you cycle on those intrusive thoughts. But it's not OCD until you take action. So it's like, oh, like, I'm worrying about this thing obsessively, and now I'm taking action every time I have that thought. You have a compulsion. And by taking action, you're actually, like, feeding the obsession. So you think that it's actually gonna, like, ameliorate it, but actually what it's doing is, like, feeding it.Link

So the way that you kind of, like, solve it, so to speak, and for me it was never, like, extreme, but the way that you work on it is, you know, in a meditation practice, you're watching your thoughts, you're watching your mind, and you're deliberately not taking action. You're just watching your mind as if it's a river of thoughts. And you can identify an anxiety or an idea or a thought or a feeling or sensation, and then you bring your attention back to your breath. Which just builds the muscle of, like, being able to witness your mind, and not just being kind of a victim to wherever it goes. You have more agency over how you deal with where your mind goes. And so...Link

LubaAre you doing guided, or just silent?Link

JoeNo, I just do silent.Link

LubaSilent. Oh, that's amazing.Link

JoeYeah, it's good.Link

LubaWhat's your life philosophy, in one sentence?Link

JoeI don't know. Live free, die old.Link

LubaLive free, die old.Link

JoeI don't know a life philosophy. I think it's probably something to the effect of... I just think it's kind of like, for me, it's just maximization. It's like making, like, making the most of your one life. Like...Link

LubaMaximizing your potential.Link

JoeYeah. And just, like, we only get to be here once, and every individual, every human, is unique. It's easy to forget that, but, like, every single person on earth is special, is uniquely them, right? They're one of a kind. And I think that, like, I personally believe that each of us should be ourselves, and, like, be the best of ourselves and be the most of ourselves. And I think that's a better way to exist for us, but I also think it's a better way to exist for the world. And so, yeah, I'd say that.Link

LubaHow did you come to this conclusion?Link

JoeI don't know. I think personal philosophy is a combination of, like, your own lived experience and your sensibilities around it, but also things you read and people you meet. And for me, I think it's definitely both. I mean, I think, you know, I... honestly, it's very hard for me to describe. It feels like something that I was born with.Link

LubaGreat answer. Yeah. Last question: top three books that deeply impacted you.Link

Joe*The Beginning of Infinity* by David Deutsch. Incredibly optimistic lens at the world, and the power of knowledge, and, like, the role of consciousness in the universe. I'd say, at the risk of, yeah, being controversial, *Atlas Shrugged*.Link

LubaOh, yeah, I love *Atlas Shrugged*. Great book.Link

JoeYeah, I mean, Ayn Rand, you know, like, it's not high literature, but I do think that the kind of heroic story of the individual, you know, is just... it's just a parable that, like, it's just deeply inspiring.Link

LubaAnd do you believe that everyone should be working on their own interests for the world to thrive?Link

JoeI think it's nuanced, but I think generally systems that are designed to follow the grain of human nature are going to succeed more than systems that oppose human nature. So capitalism more closely mirrors human nature than communism. Now, it's not absolute. Like, we don't want to live in an anarcho-capitalist world, because the government creates a playground where humans can actually build. So the government's a really, really important part of the equation. I think that's where the caricature that Ayn Rand portrays misses out. But I do think that, like, we should be designing systems that allow people to, like, exercise their liberty and, like, be competitive and creative and collaborative, as opposed to, like, having some top-down structure.Link

LubaAwesome. Well, Joe, thank you so much for your time.Link

JoeThank you.Link