KathrynCross & Rajya Atluri

LubaKathryn, Rajya, welcome to The Luba Show. I'm so excited to have you here. So Kathryn, founder of Anja Health, and Rajya, founder of Coral AI. Both are crushing it. Kathryn just stepped away from a profitable startup. Rajya bootstrapped your AI company to over $1 million ARR, right?Link

RajyaYes.Link

LubaOkay, let's get into it. One, how should one deal with uncertainty? So Rajya, you were tinkering on different products for about a year before you landed on Coral AI. And Kathryn, you had a sad story that happened to your brother. You were really inspired by that mission and went on to YC, and raised a round, and continued working on it for about three and a half years, right? And the journey was obviously uncertain, because you weren't sure how to scale up the company, whether you're going to find customers in different mediums that are going to buy the product. And you recently decided to step away, which I'm sure was also a really difficult decision. What helped you deal with uncertainty? Like, what's the key? Is it the support system? Is it your investors? How do you deal with it? Or have you even figured it out?Link

RajyaYeah, we kind of launched a bunch of different MVPs and then started to see what was getting traction, what seemed to be working. And then we eventually kind of settled on Coral AI, because we saw early traction, and then just kind of chased after it.Link

But there was a period of time where it's hard, when you're in the trenches and things aren't working and you're not sure if you're going to stick with this idea or do something different. And then you go to some, like, founder event, and everyone's like, so what are you building? And I'm like, I don't even want to get into it, because I don't know if this is going to work. And, like, you know, so there's that kind of uncomfortable period where you're just trying to figure things out. And I think that's where, like, the phrase "oh, I'm building something new" comes from, because you're kind of in that exploring phase and you're like, I don't even want to get into maybe a specific idea, so I'm just going to say, like, I'm building something new.Link

LubaKathryn, what does your therapist think about you building something new?Link

KathrynYeah, I feel like she doesn't really know tech stuff, and she's not my main therapist. My main therapist actually does know about startups. So I think when I told...Link

LubaMain therapist is an executive coach, maybe? Or...Link

KathrynNo, she's not. She just, like, happens to angel invest, as a coincidence. And I actually found her before I was in startups, so I feel like that was just a happy coincidence. But yeah, I actually met her in person once, because I ran into her at a party, like a startup launch party.Link

LubaThat's very random.Link

KathrynBut yeah, but now she's on mat leave, so I have this new therapist that isn't as fluent in startups. So she's always, like, commenting on my unemployed era. But I'm like, I am building something new.Link

LubaAnd what's her reaction to that?Link

KathrynWell, I guess, like, she's just like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, sorry. Like, you know what I mean? And I'm like...Link

LubaIs she like, oh, people who are unemployed have a lot of anxiety, so I understand how you're feeling, it's going to be okay?Link

KathrynYeah. Or, like, when I told her that I wanted to start doing content while I'm, like, taking a sabbatical, then she basically was like, "sabbatical," not an employee. Wait, when I told her I wanted to do content, she laughed. And I was like, wait, I'm doing content. And I literally told her, like, I feel like in startup circles, when you say you want to do content, people are just like, okay, nice, because they see that as a real endeavor. And, like, a lot of people in startups, I feel like, are actually successful at content. But I think she thought I was joking. And I was like, wait, I feel like in our circles, like, pursuing something new is never a joke.Link

RajyaAlso, like, you've built a following in the past. Like, you've done, like, TikTok following, like, you're a creator. A lot of parties I go to, a lot of people are either a creator on the side or used to do creator stuff full-time and, like, actually built a following from it, and it's totally normal. It's not, like, small percentage odds.Link

KathrynYeah. But I mean, she's great otherwise.Link

LubaOkay, so back to uncertainty. Rajya, you were tinkering, you would go to these tech parties and sometimes feel unexcited or unwilling to share what you were working on. What exactly kept you going? Like, why were you like, I'm just going to spend X amount of months... or, I don't know if you had necessarily a timeline on figuring out whether I can tap into a product that works. Why did you do that?Link

RajyaTo be honest, there's, like, no other thing that I want to be doing right now. I like the process of making something out of nothing and then having people use it. Like, I enjoyed that process so much that I was like, well, I don't want to go work at another company. And basically there was no alternative. I was like, I have to figure out how to make this work, because I don't want to do anything else right now.Link

LubaHow did you figure out that you didn't want to do anything else?Link

RajyaI also got into startups, like, when I was 19, in college. I had a college startup, and I went to UT and I was living in Austin, and that's, like, very much a startup scene. So I, like, started my college startup, and then I also interned at Bumble, at their headquarters there. And that was before their IPO. So I saw what a startup was like, kind of, like, still in the somewhat early days, and, like, the whole team that was, like, doing really well at, like, marketing and all this stuff.Link

And so I had that, like, early startup experience, and then ended up, like, shutting down that startup, like, in 2020. And then after that, like, had tried other ideas, and they flopped. But I think that really gave me, like, the startup bug. Like, doing the college startup, interning at Bumble, and then working at some early-stage startups right after college. And then I was like, oh, this is what I want to do. And I would say, like, by the time I was 19 or 20, I was like, this is the only thing I want to do for my career.Link

LubaWere there any alternatives that you were evaluating?Link

RajyaNo.Link

LubaNo. Wow.Link

RajyaLike, I knew I wanted to be in startups. After I shut down my college startup, that's when I worked at these other startups, because I was like, I don't have, like, another idea of something I want to do right now. So let me, like, get some experience and, like, learn from other founders. But I always knew, like, even when I was doing that, I was like, I want to go and do my own thing again.Link

LubaKathryn, what about you? What got you into startups?Link

KathrynWell, I saw on Twitter that there was the startup Launch House situation that we all lived in, and how we all met. And yeah, basically I made a Twitter initially, actually, to follow activists, because I was really interested in social justice discourse in college. And...Link

LubaWhat type of social justice?Link

KathrynLike, things about, like, basically, like, disability rights, and, like, racial issues, and, like, just, like, any type of marginalized groups, basically. I was just, like, interested in basically how grassroots organizations got started and, like, what the main discourse was around that, because I felt kind of misinformed sometimes. And so I felt like a lot of grassroots organizations started on Twitter, so that's why I made a Twitter.Link

LubaAnd you saw Launch House on Twitter at first?Link

KathrynYeah, because I was also a product designer. That was supposed to be my job out of college. So I followed some product designers from my Twitter as well, because I was just interested in what they were talking about. So then I think one of the, like, bigger product designers retweeted something about the startup co-founder living house that we all lived in.Link

LubaOkay, so you're in Launch House, and that's how you got startup-pilled, because obviously everyone was like, oh, we're building something. The whole purpose of Launch House was to incubate a startup idea, unless you were already working on one.Link

KathrynYeah, I applied because I was starting a consultancy, or I, like, had a consultancy for about six months called Bridge Strategy, and I would basically staff...Link

LubaI remember that. When we were all living in the same house, you were like, oh, I have this consultancy. And I think you were doing modeling on the side, and then you started Twitch streaming while we were in LA.Link

RajyaA Renaissance woman of many talents.Link

KathrynYeah. What did you think?Link

LubaOh, I was just like, wow, this girl is doing a lot of things. That's really cool.Link

RajyaTell your therapist that.Link

KathrynI guess because, like, I feel like a lot of people... I just think it's funny that I assume that people thought that I was probably really ignorant.Link

LubaNo, not necessarily. I actually did think that you were hustling, because you were trying a lot of different things. And I think, given that you were also so young out of college, the main thing is to try a lot of stuff to figure out what you like. So I always appreciated the hustle.Link

KathrynOkay, interesting. Because in retrospect, I feel like I was really ignorant. I didn't know anything about startups, and then, like, it was only in the first maybe three weeks of living in that house that I realized what Silicon Valley was. Like, I didn't even really know what venture was before that.Link

LubaBut I think you can argue that you were ignorant... which maybe I wouldn't even say ignorant. Like, probably just young and lacked experience or exposure. But through you hustling and trying a lot of different things, you got to Launch House, and you were curious enough to, you know, talk to people there, see what they're doing, tap into working with a couple of people, and, like, see if you can incubate your own idea. So yes, you were, you know, quote unquote, ignorant. But if you weren't that, then you would probably just, like, go down some linear path and not try anything new.Link

KathrynYeah. I remember my third week living there, I talked to this one guy about how I didn't understand what most people were saying in their conversations when they were talking about startups.Link

LubaYou were curious enough to learn.Link

KathrynYeah. Well, he was basically like, "Oh, you should just ask." And I was like, "Really? Like, isn't that annoying? And, like, I'll seem stupid." And then he was like, "No, you should just ask." So now I always ask, like, what things mean, even if I don't know, or might be worried that people would perceive me as ignorant.Link

LubaOkay, so you got startup-pilled by Launch House, and then you got startup-pilled through doing your own college startup and then working at a couple of startups. So you followed very different paths. You went on to go to YC and raise a round. You decided to bootstrap. Have you raised any money? Okay, tell me more about that. I feel like bootstrapping is having a big renaissance right now. Why did you do it? And how is the bootstrapping space right now?Link

RajyaI think, yeah, there's been a lot of conversation around it, because, especially with, like, AI, and a lot of, like, consumer AI, people will say, like, you know, there's so many competitors and there's no moat, and different things. And I think, in an interesting way, bootstrapping is a cool way to, like, hedge against all those doubts. Because let's say people say, like, there's no moat, or this is a limited opportunity, or your competitor is going to come, like, after you. If you're bootstrapped, it doesn't really matter, because, like, you don't necessarily need to have, like, a really huge outcome, because you didn't take VC money. So I think that's kind of an interesting... like, there's less pressure to be, like, my company has to be $5 billion.Link

LubaDid you always intentionally want to bootstrap, or were you also worried that you were going to have trouble raising? Because that might have been a reason as well. I don't know.Link

RajyaI think we first were like, let's just get some traction and, like, make money and get customers. Literally, the first day that we connected Stripe... like, we launched, and then, like, a week later, connected Stripe and everything, after we, like, made sure everything was good, we got a paid customer. So we were like, "Okay, we got, like, customers day one, pretty much." And so we were like, "Okay, let's just keep getting customers and keep marketing and doing what we're doing, and then we can, like, decide later if we want to raise." But then we just kept growing. We had done, like, a little... we did some organic, and then we did, like, Twitter ads for a little bit, which just...Link

LubaCan you quickly explain what Coral AI does?Link

RajyaIt's an AI document assistant. A lot of people use it for research or querying large groups of documents. You can also upload audio or video files. It'll transcribe it and create, like, meeting notes for you. You can also, like, generate, like, PowerPoint presentations, mind maps, flashcard sets, and, like, use, like, a flashcard tool. So there's, like, a lot of...Link

LubaAnd you started about two years ago, before that space was super... is it super saturated?Link

RajyaWe definitely have a good amount of competitors, but all the features are, like, kind of different. But yeah, about two years ago now.Link

LubaSo you guys started getting traction, started making money, and at that point it just didn't make sense to raise.Link

RajyaYeah. I would say that, like, we really kind of, like, hit our stride... so we started in October, two years ago. So it's pretty much exactly two years.Link

LubaCongrats.Link

RajyaBut we really hit our stride that first summer. So, like, October, we were making money and everything, all through the winter and spring. But then that summer is when we really started doing more paid ads, and things started, like, kind of taking off a little bit more.Link

LubaAnd, okay, I want to ask Kathryn. Kathryn, why did you decide to go to YC? So it was YC 2021, right? Summer?Link

KathrynWinter.Link

LubaOkay.Link

KathrynYeah. Well, I decided to go to YC because a lot of the people that I met in this startup house were in YC, and they basically encouraged me to apply. And it just seemed like the thing that people were doing when they wanted to pursue a successful startup, so I just decided to try it. But I actually applied twice, and I got rejected the first time.Link

LubaWhat was the idea the first time?Link

KathrynIt was pretty much, like, similar, but I just didn't really have any traction. And I was also kind of exploring the surrogacy space, so I included that part as well. And I feel like just the whole thing probably seemed, like, a little bit directionless, and also didn't have any evidence that it was working. So then I applied again, and then I got in that time.Link

LubaYou have a very unconventional story of getting into YC, because you're solo and you're non-technical. What's the secret, for someone who's listening?Link

KathrynI don't know. I guess I try, honestly, to not internalize any type of, like, marginalizations that might hold me back, because I feel like that can just get in your head. In fact, my YC partner, Surbhi, she has a good quote in her book that she wrote that basically talks about how, like, any type of framework that you apply to yourself that might limit your success, like, might just end up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's a much more eloquent quote than that, but that's essentially the gist of what she's saying. And I actually think that it's so true.Link

So I didn't really do anything in particular. And I actually didn't really think that being a solo founder was a negative thing. I didn't really know the discourse around solo founders at the time. So I never really...Link

LubaIgnorance is bliss.Link

KathrynYeah. So I didn't act on hedging against it. But I think people told me, when I was doing practice interviews, they gave me feedback that I should emphasize that I have a support system. So in my interviews, I would typically talk about, like, a lot of the communities that I'm a part of, or the fact that my mom is a founder too, and that she has been assisting me, et cetera.Link

LubaAnd what helped you get into YC the second time around?Link

KathrynI think it's that I had a lot of people that were consistently assisting me. So they were helping me read through my app, and then they also did practice interviews with me. And now that I have gone through it and have been in YC, I feel like I understand what they're looking for, which is basically just, like, a really pithy, concise, clear image of what you're doing, and a consistent revisiting of any type of traction and numbers and stats that you can reveal. And I think that I did that more so the second time around, because I had more feedback.Link

LubaI want to talk about co-founder dating a bit. So Rajya, you have kind of a YC story too, because you connected with your co-founder on YC co-founder matching, right? On YC something.Link

RajyaYeah, I saw him on YC co-founder matching, because I was just kind of, like, exploring. I was, like, looking on a couple different avenues. And then I think I, like, maybe looked him up on Twitter and stuff, and saw that we had some mutuals. And then another Launch House girl, Alex Weitzman, her brother has a company called Speechify.Link

LubaCliff, right?Link

RajyaYes. And my co-founder had worked there. So I actually, I think, texted Alex, so another Launch House kind of relation, and I was like, "Oh, do you, like, know this guy, or can you, like, find out?" And she's like, "Oh, yeah, like, he's great." And so then we connected. So that's kind of how that happened.Link

LubaOkay, so you started solo, and you were co-founder dating. Why were you solo? Why did you decide to look for a co-founder? Is it just you fell into it? Was it intentional?Link

RajyaWell, I'm not technical either. And so, like, most of the products that I was maybe, like, interested in exploring or building, like, would require that. And so that was kind of, like, a step one.Link

LubaGot it.Link

KathrynYeah. Well, I think because I didn't know the discourse around why being a solo founder was bad, I never really saw a reason to search for a co-founder. I was kind of like, why would anybody else care about this more than I do? And it didn't really occur to me that I should even try to find a co-founder. And I did get approached maybe a handful of times about someone joining, but by that point, I didn't really see a need, because I already had, like, my business going, and I was doing the content, the CX, the ops, and we didn't have, like, that many super technical needs at the onset.Link

And so I didn't really mind. Like, we basically just used Stripe, Airtable, Zapier, and I scaled up everything on that. And then once I had raised money, then I hired a part-time engineer, and then a full-time engineer for a little bit to help automate some of that.Link

But even now, I feel like, in retrospect, I actually had VAs do a lot of the stuff that could be automated, because I wanted a very clear insight into what needed to be automated and what the edge cases were. Actually, I got investor feedback that we should continue having VAs do our ops work for as long as possible, because it's...Link

LubaVAs in the Philippines? Where were you hiring?Link

KathrynYeah, and also from Fiverr, from Eastern Europe.Link

LubaOh, wow. How much were they?Link

KathrynI think, like, $20 an hour.Link

LubaThat's pretty expensive.Link

KathrynWell, I feel like, good VAs... yeah, the Eastern European one. Like, she's actually been the longest team member that I've had, and I value her, like, so much. And I feel like she's really grown a lot, and she also sends me really nice notes about her, like, career growth that she's had. But I feel like she really has had a lot of career growth, because I think she was able to pick things up quickly.Link

So basically, any task that I was doing more than once, I would then make a Loom for her and present to her how to do it, and then she would repeat the task. And I felt like she was able to glean learnings from that, and then she would give me feedback on certain things. And so I feel like she was actually a really key part of a lot of our content and ops sort of loops.Link

LubaHow do you guys know each other?Link

RajyaWell, we met at Launch House. And my very first memory of Kathryn is, I was rolling my suitcase into the room, and she was, like, sitting on one of the beds, because we were roommates, and she looked at me...Link

LubaThis was the all-women Launch House?Link

KathrynNo, no.Link

LubaOh, which was it?Link

KathrynFive.Link

LubaThe April cohort, right? Because you were there just continuously for a year.Link

KathrynYeah.Link

RajyaYeah. I rolled up in April.Link

LubaYeah.Link

RajyaAnd I rolled my suitcase into the room, Kathryn's sitting on the bed, and she looks at me, and she goes, "I kind of have a feeling we're going to be best friends."Link

LubaWow. Are you serious?Link

RajyaIt's crazy. And I thought she was joking around, because, like, most people would not say that to someone. And I was like, "Haha." But she manifested it. And then I later asked her, I was like, "Why did you say that? That's, like, kind of random." And she's like, "Oh, well, I looked at your Instagram, and I feel like I pattern-matched you to, like, people I've been friends with in college." And so I just had a good feeling.Link

LubaI actually totally thought you guys knew each other from middle school or something. Yeah, I didn't know you met at Launch House.Link

KathrynWait, no, we're recent. Like, literally, like, four... a little over four years ago.Link

LubaSuch endgame.Link

KathrynSuch endgame. No, literally.Link

LubaOkay. How has female friendship played a role in your startup journey? Because you're both building. Has that been at all a support system, or is it completely separate?Link

KathrynYeah, I guess it's weird, because, especially since a lot of my startup community is from YC, like, most of my startup friends are men, for sure. Which is definitely a contrast, because in college I went to Wellesley, a women's college. But I feel like my female friendships provide a lot of additional support. And I feel like I can be almost even more sincere and honest, because of, like, the sense of empathy and camaraderie that comes with female friendship, and just, like, connection, and the ability to have a buddy. Like, I think having a buddy is really important to me, and I feel like Rajya has taught me a lot of that, because Rajya is always my buddy.Link

RajyaYeah. Like, I actually think it's interesting that Kathryn and I have one kind of, like, overlapping theme, in that she went to a women's college, but I went to an all-girls school for middle school and high school.Link

LubaOh, wow.Link

RajyaSo, like, my entire, like, adolescence pretty much was, like, at an all-girls school. And I think that definitely really shaped me in how I view, like, friendship, because I loved it. I loved it so much. Like, people would say, like, would you send your daughter to, like, a girls' school? And I totally would.Link

LubaWhy?Link

RajyaBecause I just, like, loved the experience so much, and I...Link

LubaWhat did you like about it?Link

RajyaI think it, like, made me more confident in, like, my ability. Like, it's kind of cool to look around and, like, your class president is a girl. Like, everyone on your student council is a girl. The editor of your yearbook's a girl. Like, every club and, like, position is, like, inhabited by women, which is cool. So it's never, like, "Oh, I don't want to run for that," or "I don't want to do that because, like, one of the guys is going to get it." Which is why I think I don't feel nervous to, like, try for things that I want. Like, I've...Link

LubaOh, this is an interesting topic. We'll have to loop back around. But imposter syndrome, I do want to talk about that.Link

RajyaYeah, let's talk about it. Yeah, there's, like, a big thing where everyone's like... for a while, everyone was, like, wanting to talk about imposter syndrome, and they're like, do you have imposter syndrome? And I'm like, I feel like imposter syndrome is fake. Never have I ever felt like I...Link

LubaI think in a lot of ways, imposter syndrome is just insecurity masked in a term that makes you feel good.Link

RajyaYeah.Link

LubaOh, I just have imposter syndrome. But the reality is, okay, you just feel slightly insecure, and everyone does, about something. But it's... to kind of bottle it up, to call it almost this, like, disease that you have...Link

RajyaLike... and I think people especially ask women, and women in, like, tech and things like that, like, oh, you must have... like, did you have imposter syndrome? And it's, like, almost like *Inception*, like, planting the idea. But I'm like, why is that, like, a question for so many women?Link

Because frankly, like, I don't have imposter syndrome. I don't feel like, usually, like, "Oh, I don't deserve this. I don't belong here. I shouldn't be here." For me, more so I'm like, I feel like I deserve it. Like, I worked so hard. Like, yeah. I'm like, oh, our company, like, we have customers now, and, like, all this sort of stuff. But I'm like, I know the whole journey and how hard it was to get to the place where we have hundreds of thousands of users. Like, it was a grind, and it was so hard. So I don't feel like, "Oh, I don't deserve it. I shouldn't be here." I'm like, "No, I should be here. I worked so hard for it."Link

LubaYeah, I actually agree that once we start naming things, or having a term for it, then we see it all the time, and it makes us believe that that's the thing that we should focus on. Similar to what your YC partner said, Surbhi, that you shouldn't focus on marginalization. Because if you are, then you have this story that you can tell yourself that, hey, I have imposter syndrome, I don't deserve to be here, I shouldn't have this thing, or I'm a woman, and so I shouldn't be in this room. But that is a story that someone, as you said, implanted in your mind. But if you're completely devoid of those stories, then you're like, okay, well, I put in a certain amount of work. Why should I be thinking about whether it's going to be recognized or not? If it's, like, meritocratic, then I should get this thing.Link

RajyaYeah. I guess the way my brain works is, I'm like, there's no imposter. It's either, like, you deserve it or you don't deserve it. I believe I deserve it because I grinded for it. And, like, most things that I've gotten, I feel like it's been super hard, but I, like, made it happen.Link

And then if I really believe that I don't deserve it, instead of being like, "Oh, I have imposter syndrome," I feel like you have a limited amount of time to be like, "Okay, I'm going to prove to myself that I do deserve it. And what am I going to do to prove to myself that I do deserve it?" So I'm like, I feel like imposter syndrome should never be, in my opinion, a long-lasting thing. It's like, prove to yourself that you deserve it.Link

LubaOr it's almost like, gain self-respect and move on.Link

RajyaYeah. It's like, prove to yourself that you deserve it and stop having this imposter syndrome. Like, I feel like it's, like, silly to have... if you, like, have imposter syndrome for years, I'm like, well, if you really have that many doubts about yourself, then maybe you don't deserve...Link

LubaLike a crutch.Link

RajyaYeah, exactly. It's like, maybe you don't deserve it. Maybe you should just prove to yourself that you do.Link

KathrynThat's interesting. I guess because I never believe that I'm good enough. But I actually think that's why I feel like I'm able to push towards success, because I always strive to be better. So I wouldn't call it imposter syndrome, but I definitely have insecurities. But then I just try to, like, compensate, I guess. I don't know.Link

LubaHow do you compensate?Link

KathrynUsually by doing things that make me feel professionally fulfilled, and, like, moving towards goals.Link

LubaSo it is similar to what Rajya said, then. If you feel insecure, prove to yourself that you are not.Link

KathrynYeah. But I guess, to me, it never feels like it's fully resolved. And I guess I feel like a lot of founders are probably that way. Like, most founders have some kind of chip on their shoulder.Link

RajyaI think a little bit. Like, I really want to, like, prove to myself that I can do things. And so it's not like I've never felt that before.Link

Actually, this goes to my thoughts on confidence. I think the thing that builds confidence is setting goals and then doing them, and essentially proving to yourself that you can do things. It's actually my pet peeve when people just say, like, confidence is all about just, like... things like, oh, just be confident. Just, like, just be confident. Just embody confidence. And I think that's, like, very vague and doesn't actually help people. Because I think, like, not being confident is actually rooted in the narratives and the stories you tell yourself. And I think the best way to break, like, a story or narrative is with, like, evidence and proof. Like, that's the way my brain works. Like, I need to see it for fact. Like, someone just telling me you're great is not going to, like, make me feel better. But if I'm like, I can point to this, this, and this, that I made these goals and I showed myself that I could do them. So, like, I should be confident.Link

LubaYeah, I think it's an interesting psychological topic. Because for me, even if I have evidence and distinct proof that I got something, I can still tell myself a story that I got lucky. And it's hard to completely strip other factors and variables away to have, like, pure input-output, because there are things like right place, right time, or, I don't know, right introductions, or something else. I don't know, I feel like I have this thing where I would underestimate my own accomplishments, because I want to tell myself the story that something external has happened, versus I made something happen. And that is a thing that I personally need to work on, or I am working on removing. So it's like...Link

RajyaI think there's a lot of skill, though, like, to go to that. You're like, oh, was I in the right place, in the right opportunity? There is a skill in putting yourself in the right environments and expanding your surface area for, like, opportunity and, like, luck. And we've talked about this before, but, like, constructing your life to give yourself opportunities to be, quote unquote, lucky is, I think, like, a real skill. I would argue that, like, even if you got an opportunity, you crafted the environment for that opportunity to strike.Link

KathrynYeah, yeah. I made a YouTube video on how to get lucky, because we had a conversation about, like, people that are lucky versus unlucky. And, like, I feel like it's a very intentional thing to, like... yeah. And it's almost like you have to believe that you're going to be lucky. So maybe it's a good thing that you perceive yourself as lucky, because then you kind of welcome other good fortune. And everyone that I know that calls themselves, like, having lucky girl syndrome, they usually are actually indeed lucky, because they spend a lot of time thinking about their future goals and pursuing it. And so I feel like they attract the energy that they put out.Link

RajyaWe were actually just talking about this, but, like, with dating, you were saying that one of your insights was that, like, a lot of people sometimes, like, will have, like, a negative mindset of, like, nothing good will happen for me. All men are going to... all men, all women. And that's, like, the energy they end up inviting. And I think that's definitely true of, like, all things in life and career.Link

LubaYeah, I actually now more deeply believe that exactly what you think you deserve or want to have is exactly what's going to happen. So if you deeply believe that, oh, things really suck and nothing good ever happens for you, you're not going to meet anyone great. Like, that's exactly what your life is going to look like. It's almost like a shadow of whatever our subconscious actually believes is what our reality is going to look like.Link

KathrynYeah. But then, what if you feel insecure about something? Then how do you move on from that?Link

LubaThen you've got to set goals and prove to yourself that you can make them happen.Link

KathrynYeah. Because I guess, as I'm thinking about making my next company, I feel insecure about, like, not having my first company have, like, a crazy billion-dollar outcome. And I've been trying to think about how to resolve that.Link

LubaBut I think that's also a story that you tell yourself, because most startups fail completely. And you made your startup profitable, and you brought it to, you know, an actual product that is being used by people. You have PMF. I assume you are making money. You're even paying yourself a salary post stepping away. Like, that's a huge feat that most people, again, don't have.Link

And then if you're in the failure mode of, okay, you just didn't make it work, there's still a lot of people that go ahead and tell themselves a conducive story to move on and have another shot and still do it. And I think Silicon Valley is a beautiful place from a failure perspective, because failure is almost always seen as an upward trend, because you tried. But you didn't just try. You actually made it work, to an extent. Sure, you didn't have... I don't know. There's such an obsession with the billion-dollar outcomes. It's like, if you didn't have that, you completely failed. But it's so hard to make a business work. And making a business work and having, like, proper unit economics, even if it's a midsize business, is, like, a huge success in my eyes.Link

RajyaThat kind of reminds me of this idea that I used to have... some part of me is still, like, this, where I'm like, I need to know the truth and, like, the true narrative. Like, what really took place, or what really happened? And I felt like there was, like, one idea of what was right. But I talked about this with Kathryn a little bit, and with my therapist, but it's the idea of, like, maybe there's five narratives or ten narratives of things that can be true.Link

LubaAnd then you need to pick out the one that serves you most.Link

RajyaThe one that serves you, exactly. Because I was always like, well, that's just being easy on myself. I need to find the true one. Sometimes five narratives can be true. So why am I going to choose the narrative that's going to make me so sad that I never feel like trying anything ever again? And, like, maybe, like, have no, like, career growth, and I'm unhappy, when I could choose maybe one of the three that are, like, really positive, that would help propel me. So I think in some ways, I used to see it as, like, well, if I tell myself a different narrative, that's a lie, and that's just me, like, having my head in the clouds. But I actually think there can be multiple true narratives, and you can be conscious of, like, the one that you're selecting to tell yourself.Link

LubaYeah, I agree. I mean, that's human nature. We can hold so many truths at once. And getting comfortable with that is so important, because you can, you know, acknowledge the fact that there's multiple truths and there's different angles, and you have the agency and the power to choose the narrative that serves you most.Link

So, speaking of this decision of figuring out what to build next, one, why do you want to build something again?Link

KathrynI think because it's really important to me to make high-stakes decisions. Like, I think that that is something that I realized that I really missed with my last company, or, like, from my last company, since I decided to appoint a new CEO for the company in May. And yeah, I just miss, like, the days where I was making really high-stakes decisions, because I feel like, to me, that means that I'm making an impact and able to, like, see my actions result in something genuine. And so, yeah, I don't really desire to do anything else, similar to Rajya.Link

LubaWhat was that decision to step away like? Why did you decide to step away?Link

KathrynBecause I felt like I wasn't sure that we were going to get the outcome that I desired for my life. Like, just having, like, a really venture-scale growth, like, large...Link

LubaWhy do you want that?Link

KathrynBecause I feel like, to me, like, making an impact feels really important. And if it feels like the market can only be so big, then I wonder what the opportunity cost is to not spend my time doing something else that could potentially impact more people. And so I feel like I wanted to be a part of something that seemed potentially greater. I feel like with my last company, we definitely got to a certain point, but I just wasn't really sure if the market was as big as I'd initially thought when I had raised my round.Link

LubaI had an interesting conversation with a founder who is crushing it, just raised a Series B, and we were talking about motivations for starting a company, and what, in his eyes at least, is the right motivator or the wrong motivator. What was the initial motivator for both of you to build, and has that changed, and is that still the motivator now?Link

RajyaI feel like I've always had, like, lots of ideas for things, of things that would be, like, cool to have or do. I'm, like, interested in, like, people and psychology, and I think that's why I like consumer, because I just, like, like thinking about, like, the individual customer. I've always loved, like, social apps. Like, I'm obsessed with every social app and how they work, and I'm like...Link

LubaWhat's the social app you're obsessed with right now?Link

RajyaWell, I have this whole thesis on, like, the best dating apps are Instagram and Snapchat and perhaps Twitter. Really interested in, like, the dynamics of how they, like, help people connect in that regard. Like, maybe even better than, like, swiping on dating apps. So that's, like, one thing.Link

LubaIs that how you date, primarily?Link

RajyaI guess, like, it's a mix of things. Like, it's not necessarily, but I have gone on dates with people who've, like, DM'd me on Instagram before.Link

So I've always been interested in all these things. Like, it was super cool to, like, intern at Bumble. That was my very first, like, tech internship, because I, like, think dating apps are really interesting. So I've always been interested in, like, consumer products specifically, and, like, the psychology behind it.Link

And then I also think it's very satisfying to make things. Like, ever since I was a kid, I was always, like, doing little businesses or making things. Like, I remember I made, like, Christmas cards and sold them when I was a kid. Or, like, you know, I've always had that, like, creator bug. Like, I did acting classes growing up. I had my little fake talk show as a child. Like, I always liked, you know, like, content stuff and little products, like, making things and things like that. I like to write. I've always had little side projects.Link

I think being a founder is a combination of all those things. Like, the content aspect is, like, really in line with, like, the marketing part of it and the selling part of it. And the making things part is, like, the product side of it. So I get to, like, do all of my interests at once.Link

LubaAnd that's still true? That's the main motivator?Link

RajyaYeah, I think so. And then I think a little bit what Kathryn said. It's really deeply satisfying to make something, like, in your room, or, like, in a WeWork, and then somebody across the world is actually using the thing, using and paying for the thing that you made. So I still do customer video calls, like, every week, and I'm actually on, like, a video meeting with our customers and talking to them. And I still get excited by it every time, because I'm like, it's so crazy. This person, like, in France is, like, on a call with me right now, telling me how they use the thing that... like, telling me about a feature that, like, I thought of. Like, that still, like, blows my mind.Link

LubaKathryn, how about you? What's your motivator?Link

KathrynI feel like it's the impact thing. Like, I think that was always something I was looking for, because I actually wanted to be a lawyer in college, and I decided not to be, because when I asked people about, like, what they liked about their job, they never said impact. And so I didn't really feel like I was able to see the same type of feedback loop with, like, action leading to something. And I think that that feels really important to me. I think...Link

LubaBut what about... you can have so many different roles that have impact. One, you can work at a company and have a ton of impact. You can do so many things that are easier. Because a founder journey, as we talked about it, has a lot of uncertainty and is a grind, and there's so many painful things that a lot of people are unprepared for.Link

KathrynI think I get bored easily, so I actually don't mind that it seems very difficult. And I feel like the most fulfilled that I've ever been was when I was first starting my consultancy, and when I was first starting Anja Health, because my days were really, really busy, and I was consistently context switching, but then I was able to see the fruits of my labor very quickly. So I actually enjoy how difficult it is, because then I don't get bored. Versus whenever I've been an employee, I think I get bored easily, and I also feel like I can't see the fruit of my labor. It's always dependent on someone's approval, or just, like, some other external factor that's out of my control. And I think that reason is still true for me. Like, that's why I definitely knew that I wanted to start another company if I'm stepping away from one.Link

LubaDo you guys think that tech is now undergoing a renaissance, or are people just super burned out?Link

KathrynYeah, I feel like there's always more and more people turning to entrepreneurship, especially because it's becoming more accessible, since you can just make content for free, and you can basically code now at a much faster pace and without that much technical knowledge. So I think that more and more people will become entrepreneurs. Like, I feel like I've read a lot of studies about Gen Z's main job that they want to be is, like, an influencer, or, like, something like that. And also...Link

LubaAn influencer is not an entrepreneur. I mean, it is and it isn't. Like, the startup, as we said, you don't really know whether your product is going to be desired. An influencer is a little different.Link

KathrynI guess just being self-made. And I also feel like a lot of creators that I've talked to, they desire to eventually become an entrepreneur. And then, actually, interestingly, I feel like a lot of entrepreneurs also desire to become creators. Like, there are more and more founders doing founder content, which I feel like has only become an institution or concept within the past, like, three or four years.Link

LubaDo you think those types of founders... you can stereotype them as people who just want to be seen and want to build a brand, versus doing it for, like, the quote unquote right reasons?Link

KathrynYeah, I think it depends. Because I feel like with my company, we tried every single growth channel that I could think of, and content, me making TikTok videos, was still the only thing that converted the best, and with the lowest ROI, or with the lowest CAC. So I think for me, it felt like a really direct, like, correlation to the growth of our business. And also I felt like it wasn't necessarily an ego thing, because I wasn't really talking about myself or building any type of personal brand. Like, I would strictly talk about pregnancy and then my company.Link

And now, in the past two months or so, I've been making founder content. I was actually initially concerned that I'd be perceived as kind of an unserious founder that was just kind of building things for clout, because I wasn't super public about the fact that I appointed a new CEO. And so I didn't want people to perceive me as, like, a confused founder, in a way, doing founder-led content.Link

LubaYour therapist perceiving you as unemployed.Link

KathrynYeah, yeah. And so I was kind of concerned about that, but I figured that everyone...Link

LubaHas that been the case, or...?Link

KathrynI mean, people are kind of like, so what are you doing now? Like, I think they find it to be confusing. But I just figured that all of my best friends and my investors and any stakeholder that felt important to me knew that I appointed a new CEO. So everything else, I just decided to let go.Link

LubaI want to go back to YC and co-founder dating for a bit, and you are co-founder dating right now. Have you asked Rajya for any specific advice on how to pick a co-founder?Link

KathrynYeah, I'm always talking to Rajya.Link

LubaRajya, what's your advice to Kathryn? How do you feel like you got lucky with your co-founder? Was there a lot of intentional thinking and frameworks for what you were looking for when you guys started working together? Or did it, you know, did it just, like, serendipitously happen that you were a perfect fit?Link

RajyaI think one of the best things that we did was doing all the, like, little projects and stuff. Like, we didn't, I guess, officially be like, we're going to be co-founders, at the start. We just were like, let's try all these little, small ideas.Link

LubaWhy was he down?Link

RajyaI mean, he was interested in also, like, starting something, and we thought that it would probably be the best way to see if we worked well together, to, like, start with little projects. And that, like, in hindsight, I think that was good, because it also, like, tests, in some ways, like, resilience. Where something didn't work out, we'd be like, okay, on to the next thing, and just didn't get, like, too hung up on, like, something not working.Link

LubaIt's awesome that you guys were so aligned that bootstrapping is the way. Because I feel like, especially in the last few years, given that there is a lot of capital out there, it's easy to get blindsided, and blinded, rather, on the capital thing of, like, oh, you know, I can just go and raise a bunch of money and kind of de-risk. Although I think that's a huge myth, that you're actually going to de-risk anything. But yeah, I think that's really lucky that your co-founder was down.Link

RajyaYeah, yeah. That's interesting, like, the de-risking thing. Because, like, what I was saying earlier, it's like, then you have to have this, like, really big outcome. Whereas, like, I think in some ways, like, bootstrapping de-risks the environment right now with AI consumer products.Link

But yeah, I think we were always focused on the beginning. We're like, okay, let's make a product that works, that has customers, and that makes money. Like, we were pretty focused on those things early on, and we were, like, yeah, really aligned on that. So I think one of the best things was being able to work on little projects together. And I think, like, Kathryn, you've been, like, doing that, like, experimenting on little projects with people. Because there's no better way to know if you work well with someone than to start working with them.Link

LubaWorking with them, yeah.Link

RajyaSo I think that does more than, like, any extended conversation.Link

LubaYeah. Like, there are co-founder questionnaires, right?Link

RajyaYeah. And it's like... I think we actually did go through one, maybe, if I remember. I can't quite remember. But yeah, the actual best thing is just, like...Link

LubaDo the thing.Link

RajyaMaking something.Link

LubaYeah. Kathryn, tell us more about your co-founder dating right now. How has it been going? Also, actually, why are you looking for a co-founder this time around?Link

KathrynI think because I had feedback previously that, as a solo founder, like, at the times when I felt really lonely or anxious, like, a lot of people would tell me that it was probably because I was a solo founder. And so I think that I desire to have more, like, internal strength this time. And so, yeah, so that's why I have been looking. I'm not entirely opposed to doing the solo founder thing again, but I feel like it would be good to have someone else to hack on ideas with, because I just feel like then I can be stronger and perhaps have more conviction with whatever it is.Link

LubaAnd are you raising this time around, or bootstrapping?Link

KathrynWell, I think I would like to raise again, just because of the implication that then you are moving towards a billion-dollar outcome and that you can scale very quickly. But I would definitely do it differently this time. Like, I think last time, I just kind of raised when it seemed like that's what people were doing, and I didn't really know why or how you should be raising. But it was...Link

LubaYou got really... I don't want to use the word lucky, but you did get really lucky with your raise.Link

KathrynYeah, I think it was... I mean, I feel like I mainly raised because that's what you're supposed to do at the end of YC. And so then I just, like, structured... then I figured out how to raise effectively.Link

LubaWorking with 776, Alexis Ohanian, and a few other investors.Link

KathrynYeah. And so I did, like, learn how to raise, and now I think I'm, like, relatively good at fundraising. Like, I've been told by my investors that I'm, like, the best fundraiser they've...Link

LubaWell, wait, tell us more. What makes you so good at fundraising?Link

RajyaWell, watch her content for that.Link

KathrynYeah, yeah, yeah. I have, like, a YouTube video on fundraising. And I mean, I haven't even raised that much money, so I guess I've only really done it twice, for my pre-seed and seed. So, like, n is small. But I feel like I know the dynamics of fundraising well. So it feels like a more comprehensive feat to me than it did when I first raised my...Link

LubaYou're not giving us much. What's the key to fundraising, to you? Three tips.Link

KathrynYeah. Well, I think the key to fundraising effectively is to really run a true process, which is seven calls a day for two or more weeks. But I feel like creating that very tight circle of, like, when you are fundraising helps you to build a lot of FOMO and momentum. And I think the momentum part of fundraising is an underestimated part of it.Link

Like, when I first raised my pre-seed, I was just kind of randomly messaging people. I didn't really have a consistent cadence. I would just take calls as they came to me. And I was able to raise a little bit. Like, I raised about $400K for my pre-seed, but it was over the course of many months. It felt like it dragged on, and it also distracted me from my core business, when it was always an additional consideration of if I should be fundraising or taking calls, or how much time should I spend on it.Link

And then I was just more inclined to fundraising the second time around, because I got more advice from mentors. And I feel like that tight process allows you to, like, have a dedicated time space for fundraising. It also allows you to feel personal momentum, so you walk into calls feeling more confident, because you have a lot of consistent, like, irons in the fire. And then it also makes investors feel a sense of FOMO, because they're probably hearing chatter that you're taking a lot of fundraising calls.Link

LubaIs that what you mean by momentum? So having a lot of calls, people talking about your raise and having a call with you, because the investor community is pretty small? Would you say that has changed a lot? Because I feel like there's so many more funds right now, and so many more people deploying capital.Link

KathrynYeah, but I still feel like there's a sense of, like, they know each other. Especially, I feel like there's only so many LPs, and a lot of GPs are LPs too, in other funds. So I think it actually ends up being quite small. Like, when I was fundraising, then I would typically hear about it through, like, third-degree connections. Like, oh, I got feedback from this third-degree connection of yours that, like, they knew someone else that was part of the round or whatever. So I feel like it still is pretty small.Link

LubaWho are the best fundraisers you know?Link

KathrynI feel like a certain someone was really good at fundraising, because I think he's really good at building hype and telling a story. And also, I think he genuinely believes every narrative that he creates for himself. And I think he actually really taught me that, like, you can move forward with whatever narrative you choose to tell yourself. Because he would construct these really grand narratives about what he's doing and what his future looks like, and then he would tell people as if he, like, genuinely believed it.Link

LubaTo that point, then, is fundraising more about storytelling and the energy versus the actual product?Link

KathrynYes, I actually think so. And I've talked to some European founders that I know from, like, other communities, and I actually think that they are exposed to that kind of, like, hype less. Because I think in the European startup scene, it is more about traction and product. And so they almost laugh and find it ridiculous and abhorrent that, like, people raise with no traction in the States.Link

But I actually think that they are hindering themselves by not partaking in the same movement. Because, like, having a lot of confidence and hype is the reason that I feel like most pre-seed investors invest. And I feel like raising at the pre-seed is, like, really the initial, like, match that you need to be lit. And so you may as well, like, take part in that and raise, like, a fat round that has a lot of hype, and, like, tell a grand story for yourself.Link

LubaYeah, I agree and disagree with that. Because as someone who did raise a large round, and have seen people, you know, kind of dangle that thing as their main achievement... Because you raise this round and you're like, okay, well, have I actually done anything to make it happen? I think it could be a really big hindrance to then your startup journey. Sure, it's better to have more money in the bank than less money in the bank. But it really depends on whether you've learned anything from people around you, and whether it's your first foray, and how you're going to use that money.Link

Because I've seen people inflate their ego so much about their great storytelling abilities, or the fact that all these investors believed in them, and don't actually have much to show for it. And that becomes, in and of itself, a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because you're, you know, you don't have customers who are paying for your product. You're just going around all these different tech parties boasting about your round. And then it's like, okay, well, so are you a performative founder who just raised a ton of money, or are you actually building something of value?Link

KathrynYeah, I know. I actually typically try not to talk about my round or how much I've raised, or even, like...Link

LubaI find that really annoying when people... that's, like, the main thing they talk about. Having been in the startup trenches, for all of us, it's like, it's so hard to actually make something work that the round thing and the money thing, it's just a completely different thing that has nothing to do with any of your success.Link

RajyaThat's actually, like, something that I've noticed going to, like, tech parties. They'll be like, "Oh, what are you doing?" And I'm like, "I'm building a startup. I'm a founder," whatever. And they'll say, "Have you raised?" It's, like, often their first question, because they're trying to, essentially... they're trying to place you in a box. Like, is she some, like, newbie person who just started, like, a month ago, or is she, like, a serious founder?Link

But it really irks me, because it's the first question: have you raised? And then my answer is no, and then immediately, this immediately, like, oh, you're, like, a bad founder. And sometimes I'm like, what's your story? And then I find out they're like, oh, we haven't even launched yet, or, like, we don't have any revenue. And I'm like, it's funny that, like, I'm immediately discounted for not having raised when, like, maybe we have more revenue than you, you know?Link

LubaYeah, I think it's both discounting you as a newbie and also discounting you because you're not valuable, in a way. Because the startup circles are so focused... or not, I don't want to, you know, black-and-white stereotype it. A certain amount of startup circles are very focused on the external. Like, whom did you raise from, how much, like, all these metrics that don't actually matter as much. People are trying to size you up and see whether you're well connected, whether you're, like, perceived as someone who is successful. But perceived is very different from actually being successful at what you're doing or not.Link

And again, like, I think it's so much cooler to actually build something that works and people are paying for, to your point about, like, oh, you didn't reach a billion-dollar outcome, than, like, having raised $15 million from Sequoia, and that's, like, literally the only thing you did, and no one cared about your product. So yeah, I really dislike that whole...Link

RajyaYeah. I think on top of that, there's, like, this other perception that if you're bootstrapped, you're growing slowly. Because, like, people immediately, like, bootstrapped means, like, lifestyle business or something like that, where you're not growing at the same trajectory as something that's venture-backed. But I also think that's false. Like, we have gotten to, like, certain amounts of revenue and ARR and customers faster than, like, venture-backed companies, and we're profitable.Link

And so that's, like, another thing where it's like, we actually do have the stats and, like, the setup to probably go raise, like, a competitive round. Like, I would like to think, if I'm kind of looking at, like, the market and, like, what other people's kind of stats and stuff are. But there's also the idea of, like, oh, you're bootstrapped, like, you're just, like, growing really slowly. So I think people think, like... everyone's like, venture is, like, hockey stick growth. But I would say actually bootstrapping can also be that kind of growth.Link

LubaDo you think people are too obsessed with growth and with having an oversized outcome, versus having an outcome that is good enough? And through that lens, what is your definition of success?Link

RajyaI guess I would say, like, being in the early days, like, sometimes I don't see, like, that much of a growth difference between me and someone who raised venture. I definitely think maybe it, like, makes more of a difference, like, further in. And we're not that far in, but in the early days, we've been able to grow at, like, similar rates as venture-backed companies. So that's, like, my take there. Obviously, in the later stages, it makes a big difference, and I think that's, like, the thing.Link

And so, with, like, outcomes-wise, I think it's that, like, not all businesses are, like, suited for venture outcomes. But there's, like, a lot of people who are trying to have a venture outcome for certain, and that's, like, the whole, like, raising money aspect of it. But, like, I think more people should be comfortable with, like, building businesses that maybe don't have a venture outcome. Because I think there's a lot of people who would find fulfillment in... especially if your interests are just, like, you like building products and tinkering and making things and having customers. If that's why you're a founder, then you could be really happy bootstrapping. If the satisfaction comes from, like, the big outcome, then, like, maybe you should, like, you could, like, pursue that.Link

LubaSo for you personally, why are you still working on Coral AI? Are you going to raise? Are you planning to make it bigger? Are you pretty happy with where it's at? Is it that fulfillment for you personally is from the outcome that you have right now? You don't really want to grow it bigger?Link

RajyaI guess I kind of said, like, why I want to be, like, a founder, is I like making things. And I like the idea of, like, something that I'm making, like, in my room right now, could be, like, used by people across the world. And it's, like, really cool to just make something that wasn't there before. And, like, the creative aspect of, like, how can I get this thing to work better? Like, the problem-solving part is fun, like, tinkering around. So it's satisfying to me to, like, do that every day.Link

And also, even just, like, the marketing. Like, I love content. I think content is so interesting. And, like, why certain content works, and, like, what interests people. Like, I've always been interested in the entertainment world. Like, as a kid, I did acting classes, and I've always been interested by people's attention. Like, what grabs people's attention, and why? Why is certain, like, content and art interesting to people? And that's really going hand in hand with, like, building in consumer right now. So I think both of those things are, like, really fascinating to me. So that's, like, why I like, you know, doing the work.Link

But I think the broader question of, like, where do you see it going? I actually think we're in a really good spot right now, where we could stay bootstrapped, or I, like, really think that we could raise if we wanted to. Right now, like, things are going well, and we're, like, happy with how we're growing. So right now, we don't feel like we need the money, frankly.Link

LubaWhat's your life like right now? Is it kind of, like, *The 4-Hour Workweek*? You've got it to a point where it's working without much of your oversight? Are you still grinding and, like, figuring things out because one channel for marketing is not working, so you've got to find a new one? Or, like, I don't know, Facebook... you guys were talking about Facebook ads before we started the pod, and you were talking about figuring something out there. So maybe policies change. Like, where is it at, as far as your own, not even commitment, but as far as your own attention?Link

RajyaWe're basically just trying to figure out how to scale everything. The product works. We have, you know, thousands of paid users. We're trying to figure out how to scale, like, Meta ads better and more efficiently.Link

LubaSo you want it to grow faster and bigger.Link

RajyaYeah, that's, I mean, basically the name of the game right now. We ship new features all the time, so we're constantly shipping new features. And then we're also just scaling Meta ads, scaling Google ads. We're working with UGC creators to do organic content on TikTok and Reels, so we're working with, like, several of them. So we're just doing everything.Link

LubaSo it's still very much, like, startup-y.Link

RajyaYeah, yeah. We work every day on it and just keep going. But it's just me and my co-founder.Link

LubaOh, wow. It's just the two of you?Link

RajyaYeah.Link

LubaThat's crazy.Link

RajyaSo my co-founder, as I mentioned, is, like, technical, so he's actually, like, writing the code, and then we both kind of, like, do product together.Link

LubaAnd you're over 1 million? Over 2 million ARR?Link

RajyaRight now, gross revenue we've been doing for the last two weeks, like, around, like, 6,000 to 7,000 a day, which puts us at, I would say, like, 2.3 gross. But I don't know what that ARR works out to, because it's, like, subscription. The reason we're getting more gross is people buy annual plans, so I don't know what the exact ARR is right now. But yeah.Link

LubaAre either of you jealous of the other person's journey? The fact that Rajya is bootstrapping, the fact that Kathryn is more on this, you know, raised founder type of perception?Link

KathrynWell, I always told Rajya that I felt like she would outpace me. And I also think she's, like, the smartest person that I know. Like, people always text me, like, who's the best growth person you know? And I always say Rajya. So, yeah. So I feel like I, like, really admire the way, like, Rajya's mind works about growth things. And for that reason, like, I've, like, contracted her to help me with certain things, because I, like, genuinely think that she's, like, the best with growth stuff. And so, yeah, so I envy that we're not co-founders.Link

RajyaIt's interesting. Like, I feel like Kathryn's superpower is that she is the ultimate connector. Like, I remember I read, like, Malcolm Gladwell's book... what was it, *The Tipping Point*? And they talk about the connector person. And I think that Kathryn is definitely that, like, archetype. She's someone who has, like, the most friends, knows everyone.Link

It's, like, actually funny. Like, I'll be walking down the street with Kathryn... I feel like so many times we hang out, she'll run into people on the street, like, almost every single time that I'm with her. And it's just because she has, like, one of the biggest networks of people. Like, and she's really good at keeping up with people and reaching out to people, and, like, maintaining connections, and being, like, a good connector of other people. Like, you're good at introducing people. She's introduced me to, like, you know, her college friends, or different people, startup people. So she's definitely one of, like, the best connectors I know.Link

LubaBut do you in any way wish for the clout of a raised founder? Or do you wish for the lifestyle of a bootstrapped founder?Link

KathrynI feel like sometimes. Because I think that there was, like... I felt a lot of pressure, like, not from my investors, but it was, like, more like self-imposed pressure, because I had raised, that I felt the need to, like, have this billion-dollar outcome and such. And I think that that's why I felt, like, really a lot of shame, like, when our growth wouldn't be at certain spots. And I think it definitely, like, motivates me to work hard. But I sometimes, like, wish that I didn't feel so much shame. And it made me feel a lot of, like, anxiety around, like, not fulfilling the goals that I had promised to others. And so sometimes I feel like, yeah.Link

And then also because, like, I feel like when Rajya was first starting out, like, we would talk about, like, what we were saying about around the tech parties, like, people kind of, like, dismissing people if they hadn't raised. But I always told Rajya, like, the real meaningful business owners are the ones that are creating the impact. And to me, the biggest measure of impact is the revenue that you're generating, because people are willing to pay for something that actually brings them value. And so, like, a lot of people don't really get there.Link

LubaSo, actually, on that point of having anxiety around self-imposed pressure, I remember when you were telling me about the decision to step away from Anja, and how you were feeling so stressed out. And then you talked to your investors, and it turned out they were kind of cool with the fact that you decided to step away. What is that mental journey like, of having raised a round, promised a bunch of things, or, like, the thing about the billion-dollar outcome to your investors? And obviously you have expectations to raise more and have a higher valuation and tap into more customers. How did you deal with that pressure? And tell me more about that moment when you realized that the pressure was actually self-imposed.Link

KathrynYeah, I feel like just being honest with my investors was the best thing that I could have done, because then they feel like they're on board with any decisions that I make, and then I also felt better.Link

LubaHow often would you check in with them?Link

KathrynWell, I definitely stuck to the monthly updates via email. But then some of them, I would talk with more consistently over the phone. And whenever I was at certain inflection points, I would make sure to get on calls, especially with my bigger investors. And so I was always trying to just make sure that they felt included in any decisions that I was making, and then I felt good about acting with integrity. But it also made me feel relief, because I feel like honesty typically relieves my anxiety, which is why I'm generally really transparent with people about everything, even if it's about, like, my own life.Link

And so I think I just, like, really wanted to tell them when it felt like I had reached a certain point around, like, what I was going to do next. And yeah, I think that they were receptive, because I had done my business for four years by the time I appointed a new CEO. And I think that they could also see, like, that our growth was more linear and not exponential, and we reached profitability. And I also explained to them that I felt like, if I were to sell, it would be a better outcome if we just waited a little bit. But the marketing had gotten to a point where we could have pretty linear growth without my direct involvement, or anyone, even, honestly, like, really doing anything. And then we could increase our ARR, and then maybe have a better outcome at a later date.Link

LubaHow did you feel finally making that decision to step away?Link

KathrynAt first, I felt relief. But then I felt a lot of, like, identity issues, because all I've ever been professionally is a founder, really. I was a product designer for only, like, three months, and then I quit my job to start my company. And so I felt really, like, a dissonance with who I was.Link

And then I started making content. I feel like that gave me a little bit of structure, and at least gave me the sense of momentum, that I was working towards something. And then I recently hit 10,000 followers. I feel like... thanks.Link

LubaI love your content.Link

KathrynYes. So I feel like that was a good goal for me to hit. But I also think going through that process made me realize that I perhaps would not actually want to do content full-time, and that I do really desire being a founder, because I feel like that is what makes me feel most fulfilled. So, yeah, I feel like I'm still thinking through the identity stuff and, like, healing my self-esteem. But, yeah, working on it.Link

LubaRajya, how much of your identity is wrapped in the founder world?Link

RajyaI don't really, like, use it for my, like, personal brand.Link

LubaWhat's your personal brand? As in...?Link

RajyaI have never posted about Coral AI on my personal Instagram, for example.Link

LubaWow, okay.Link

RajyaNot once.Link

LubaWhy? Was that intentional?Link

RajyaI actually feel like, because when I did my college startup, and when I tinkered on a few other projects... I did another project by myself after college... I was posting about it all the time. I kind of liked the idea of, like, this new thing I'm working on, like, keeping it separate from my, like, personal life. Because I do think I let, like, the whole vibe of, like, being a founder, maybe, like... I don't know. I actually think it's been better that I, like, separate. Like, a lot of people in my personal life who are, like, maybe acquaintances might not know that I'm working on a startup, because I haven't, like, posted about it.Link

And I think it also can be hard when you feel like something failed, or, like, I shut down those startups, to, like, have it intertwined with, like, your personal life, and everyone in your life knows you're, like, doing a startup and everything. And I actually like keeping it separate. I've only, like, tweeted about it and stuff. So it's, like, Twitter, but I use Twitter for, like, largely, like, work or tech stuff, like tech Twitter. So I have it on Twitter. And I also don't post on LinkedIn about it, also. I mean, maybe I should, because, you know, maybe our customers are on LinkedIn. So I would only do it on LinkedIn literally to get customers. Even on Twitter, like, I kind of did it because we're like, maybe we could get some customers, and people could hear about us. But, so yeah, now the only time I would post about something, really, is because I feel like we would get customers from it, because we're a consumer product, but not necessarily because I need to, like, have it related to my, like, personal life, I guess.Link

LubaYeah, it reminds me of... what was that? Was it Paul Graham's essay on keeping your identity small, or something along those lines? But the whole premise was that if you blow your identity out of proportion, then it's kind of starting to dictate your life. And I think there's so much of that in the Valley, with being a founder, or even being a VC. People make it such a big part of their life and such a big identity. And I think that's part of the reason why it's really hard to then reconcile your feelings and emotions if you have to move on.Link

And I'm also wondering, Kathryn, if you think, in any way, having an identity as a founder and hanging out with a lot of founders is what's pulling you back into being a founder? Or do you think it's completely based on the fact that you really thrive in that environment and role?Link

KathrynI guess it's just, honestly, the only thing that I know how to do. And so I did, kind of during this, like, sabbatical period, explore other things, like contracting things and the creator thing. And I was, like, exploring even, like, entertainment stuff.Link

LubaI remember you were even thinking about politics.Link

KathrynYeah. And so, like, I feel like I did kind of lightly explore things, but it just always taught me that I won't find anything more fulfilling than being a startup founder.Link

And so I think the reason that I self-select to have a lot of founder friends is because I think that they tend to trend, like, extremely intellectually curious, which is, like, a trait that I value in people in general. So I feel like that's why I have founder friends. Like, I like that.Link

I feel like Rajya and I are so close because we intersect in all of my different planes, which is, like, fashion, girly pop stuff and beauty, and, like, pop culture, but then also, like, startup stuff. And, like, we also talk about, like, psychology and sociology. So I feel like there's a lot of different planes of interest that we're able to intersect on. And I just feel, like, not fully seen unless, like, someone intersects with me in a lot of planes. And so I think that that's why I tend to have a lot of founder friends.Link

LubaOn the whole girly pop, pop culture stuff. Do you feel like you guys being very girly makes you be better as a founder, worse as a founder? Is it hindering you in any way? Because I think there's always been a certain perception and way for how you should be, especially in tech. And I think in a lot of ways, you're kind of both underrated. And I wonder if that was your superpower, or if it was an obstacle in any way. And also if, at any part of your journey, you were like, "Oh, I need to be more, like, a certain way, less girly, to succeed."Link

RajyaI love being girly. I would never, like, make myself less girly.Link

KathrynYeah, yeah, yeah. Same. But I've always been, like... I've always been, like, a...Link

LubaWhy is there so much discourse about not... or why has there been so much discourse around not being girly in tech?Link

KathrynWell, because I've heard stuff. Like, one of my first videos to go really viral was about, like, this advice that I got from another female founder, where she basically said that if you're a 10, nobody will take you seriously, but if you're a five, people will think that you're too uncute to talk to. So you should strive to be a seven as a woman.Link

And I just, like, don't really even try to think about myself on that scale when I'm in professional settings. I just try and, like, be who I am. And I'm always, like, choosing the narrative to just be to my advantage. So if people do think that I'm, like, too pretty to be taken seriously, then I'm like, well, then they do typically underestimate me, and also because I have a really strong LA accent. But then if they think that I'm, like, too, like, whatever, to, like, not talk to or whatever... I don't know, I just, like, think that it's not helpful to frame anything in a negative light for yourself. And also, at the end of the day, if you're doing a good business with good revenue, then, like, what you've done, or who you are, like, it doesn't really matter, because people just want a return.Link

RajyaYeah, I mean, and if they think you're dumb, if your competitor thinks you're dumb, all the better.Link

KathrynYeah.Link

RajyaBecause then you can blow right past them with your revenue, and they'll be like, "Oh, that dumb girl is doing that company. Like, we don't have to worry about her."Link

KathrynYeah.Link

RajyaNot that that's happened, but...Link

KathrynYeah. And actually, one of my investors told me that he invested in me because he thinks that I'm the type of person to get away with everything, and he thinks that makes a good founder. And so I feel like that's, like, just a part of my personality. And I think that when I show up in, like, a full, like, fit and stuff, especially when I'm in SF, I can tell that there's kind of a dissonance. If I show up in, like, a full outfit, yeah, and then in SF, like, it's, like, a party at an office, and everybody's in, like, a sweater and, like...Link

RajyaI mean, also, Kathryn and I joke, like, we love attention.Link

KathrynYeah.Link

RajyaThat's why we're such good friends, because we give each other lots of attention. But I was always that way as a kid. Like, I liked attention and standing out, and I love talking, and, like, my family gives me a lot of attention. My high school superlative was best dressed. So I was like, why would I dull myself down or something to, like, fit in? Like, I don't want to do that.Link

LubaOkay, so the whole women in tech, is it still a thing? Is it not a thing? What do you guys think about it? Of, you know, emphasizing the fact that you're a woman, being a part of women-only communities to support each other. You obviously both went to women-only schools as part of your upbringing. Is that in, not in?Link

RajyaI haven't met, like, any of my women friends in tech through, like, women's communities, per se. I feel like I've just made my closest friends through, like, Launch House, which is co-ed, and then, like, just through meeting people at things, and, like, friends of friends. Like, it was just really organic. It wasn't necessarily because we, like, met at... sometimes, I feel like, those spaces can just be, like, a cocktail party, or, like, something like that. And I feel like oftentimes, a lot of the other women I've spoken to have just met each other organically through, like, friends of friends.Link

KathrynYeah, yeah, yeah. One of my friends told me recently that he thinks I'm really good at girl flirting. Because I feel like when I meet women, especially at tech events, I try to be really warm to them, because there's usually so few of us. And so I'm just, like, really inclined to try.Link

LubaIs that changing at all? Are there more women in tech right now, or...?Link

KathrynWell, I attend YC events, so no.Link

LubaReally?Link

KathrynActually, no. I mean, I don't think so. I don't really think so. And, like, when I go to SF, like, I just don't really... yeah, I don't really see it.Link

It's been kind of interesting creating tech content, because I feel like, definitely, amongst the tech influencer scene, there are more women, especially when you're doing video content. But I feel like that's just the nature... I feel like it's more maybe correlation than causation. Just because I know a lot of guys, actually, that do make tech content as well, but they just don't get the same recognition. Their videos don't do as well. Like, I know this guy that's, like, pretty good-looking. He makes good content. Like, he says stuff that's interesting. But he just, like, hasn't passed a thousand followers, and he's been making content for as long as I have. And I feel like the video aspect... like, men just don't perform inherently as well, because most tech content viewers are men, so they probably would rather watch a woman say those things than a man. So I feel like I've really only thought about gender dynamics deeply in tech when it comes to content stuff. Same with Twitter, I think.Link

LubaWhat's the vibe in YC right now? How has it changed from winter 2022?Link

KathrynWell, there's definitely more AI companies. I also feel slightly old when I go to YC things, because I feel like they tend to skew younger, but...Link

LubaI heard from someone that it's easier to get into YC right now than it is to get a job at a tech company out of college.Link

KathrynOh, yeah. Max Marchionni tweeted that, I think.Link

LubaOh, okay. I did not hear anything from him, but there was someone... there was a friend who was like, "Oh, a cousin of mine got rejected by all the big tech, and so he's going to YC, because, you know, why not? He has, like, no other choice, quote unquote."Link

KathrynRight, right. Is that true? Probably depends on the person, because I feel like YC indexes for certain traits that, like, a big institutional college might not. So, like, being scrappy. It's kind of like how the Cluely founder, very, like, virally, didn't get into that many schools.Link

LubaIt makes a ton of sense, going after school. It's kind of like a continuation of college in a lot of ways.Link

KathrynYeah. Although, like, we've talked about how, like, we think us going to college has helped us, like, develop more. So we both, like, feel grateful for the time in college, because I feel like it was good to have a space where I wasn't thinking about, I need to make a startup. I went to YC after college.Link

LubaOh, yeah, yeah, yeah.Link

KathrynBut I think it's good that I did college, like, first.Link

LubaSo, okay, YC skews a lot younger. How young are we talking?Link

KathrynLike, I feel like... I don't know the average age of YC, but I generally feel like the people that I meet in startups are, like, 23-ish or below. And now I'm 26, so...Link

LubaDo you feel like it's better to do a startup when you're younger?Link

KathrynI definitely think it's worth doing. I don't know if it's better, per se, than for people that are slightly older. But you probably, like... I know a lot of people that are our age that say they want to do a startup eventually, but then they just, like, need more work experience. I don't necessarily...Link

LubaStuck.Link

RajyaLike, I know a lot of people in college who are like, "Yeah, I definitely want to do my own thing." Then they start... jumping right out of college, and then they do, like... they go into finance or consulting or something, and then they feel like they're stuck there. And then they go to business school, and then in business school, they're like, "I'm definitely going to start my own thing after business school." And then they end up going back to finance or consulting.Link

And I think it's, like, hard to... like, part of it goes back to, like, uncertainty is a very uncomfortable feeling. And I think it's, like, difficult to sit in that feeling for a while. Yeah, like, Kathryn is having to, like, sit in the uncertainty feeling right now. And, like, yeah, it's like, you were kind of telling me, like, it doesn't feel great. I sat in it for a long time while, like, nothing was working, and, like, it didn't feel great.Link

And I think when you're in college, nothing's, like, necessary. Like, you know, you're in school, you're a student, you have the identity as a student. But I think sometimes it can be easier to transition into, like, a period of uncertainty then, than when you've had, let's say, eight years of working somewhere where it's, like, very certain. You get used to it more.Link

LubaAre you besties with your co-founder?Link

KathrynYou always get this question.Link

LubaHow come? Okay, it's fine. It's fine.Link

RajyaI'll tell you later.Link

LubaOkay. Okay, sounds good. Okay, Kathryn, you just went to SF. What's the vibe?Link

KathrynThe vibe in SF is interesting. It does make me wonder if perhaps it's my time to be in SF. But yeah, we were talking about, like, if I leave, then I have to go long distance with my husband... with my wife. So that's my main hesitancy.Link

And also, I don't necessarily have a lot of buddies in SF. Like, a lot of my friends in SF are not single. And I don't usually think about that that much, but in SF it feels clearer to me, because usually, like, people in SF don't really have, like, a crazy social calendar anyways. So then the few things that they allot to be social things, they spend with their partner. So then, like, when I wanted to do certain things in the past, like, a few days in SF, then I typically didn't feel like I had a buddy in the same way that I have Rajya in New York.Link

And so, yeah. But I do like that the intellect definitely feels more concentrated. I feel like, even though there's less social things happening, the people that I do end up having social things with are really interesting and usually doing really interesting things.Link

LubaLike what?Link

KathrynLike building their own companies, or, like, some kind of, like, media personality.Link

LubaOkay. You're talking about things that people are doing. I thought you meant things that you tend to do with people in SF.Link

KathrynOh, no, no. I feel like the activities are, like, relatively the same, although perhaps, like, slightly lower scale in SF, because there isn't, like, the crazy restaurant scene that there is in New York. But yeah, the people that I do things with are definitely, like, very intriguing to me. Also, because I'm from California, like, I feel just like I vibe... yeah, I vibe with the California lifestyle. But I do imagine that when I go to California, I probably will never leave. So I want to make sure that when I do decide to go to California, it feels like the right time.Link

LubaI think it's a bit controversial that both of you have never really full-time built in SF, especially for YC. Obviously you did YC, I assume, remotely, back in '22.Link

KathrynIt was remote, but I lived in SF.Link

LubaOkay.Link

KathrynFor, like, the three months, yeah.Link

LubaBut then you moved to LA?Link

KathrynYeah, back to LA.Link

LubaAnd then Rajya, you've been mostly building in New York.Link

RajyaNew York and LA.Link

LubaNew York and LA, so very different. I feel like the Twitter discourse is all about, if you're not in SF, what are you even doing? How are you going to compete? How are you going to raise money? Tell me about that point of your career.Link

RajyaWe were actually chatting about this the other day. I think it is kind of interesting. Like, I get all the reasons that people live in SF. And, like, I think SF is a fun place, and also really interesting to be in for work stuff, so it has a bit of both.Link

But I think it's interesting to be in New York or LA, especially if you're working in consumer. Because sometimes I've noticed with, like, startups in SF, it's like you're so much in the tech bubble that you forget, like, the language and, like, marketing... that people outside the tech bubble, it doesn't click with them. So, like, one example is, I'll see a lot of startups that are aimed at your, like, average consumer call themselves, like, the AI agent for document something. And it's like, a lot of people don't know what an AI agent is. But if you're in SF circles enough, you'll be like, obviously everybody knows what an agent is, there's billboards about it. Everybody knows what an agent is. Like, do you live under a rock? And it's like, my mom, who's a doctor, she's a smart person, wouldn't be able to say what an agent is. And so, you know, there's a lot of very, like, smart people who don't live under a rock who don't know what agents are.Link

And you can kind of get maybe in this, like, echo chamber. And with consumer, like, the thing that you really have to understand is, like, what is the person that I'm trying to sell to really going to resonate with, and click with them, and make them want to purchase the product? And so I think sometimes it's kind of nice to be maybe out of the bubble for, like, that consumer marketing mindset. And I'm not saying it's impossible in SF, but that's something that I think is cool here. Like, I like that a lot of my friends here don't work in tech and, like, work in other industries. And same with LA. Like, a lot of my friends were outside the tech space.Link

LubaKathryn, what do you think about... I mean, in YC especially, I think it's a very big part of the discourse.Link

KathrynYeah. Well, I just worried that if I left... or that if I stayed in SF, that I would lose my propensity to fashion and beauty.Link

LubaTo what? To fashion and beauty, yeah.Link

KathrynBecause I do feel like I get a lot of inspiration, fashion-wise and such, like, living, especially, in New York. So maybe that shouldn't be such, like, a central priority for me, because my career is not really related to that. But I do, like, like feeling in touch with just, like, other aspects of my life. But I guess I'm wondering if, like, if I stay in New York long enough, if I'll just soak up enough for my life, for the duration of my life.Link

RajyaI mean, like, my, like, life philosophy right now... like, actually, the reason I moved to New York is that I have the most friends here of any other city.Link

LubaOkay, Kathryn, you're a part of a lot of different communities, like Forbes 30 Under 30, Interact, obviously YC. Is there any benefit to being a part of all these different, flashier title things?Link

KathrynFor me, it's the people and the support system. I think, especially because I was a solo founder, it felt really important to me to have a lot of people that were founders that I also considered friends. Because then I felt like I had a lot of people that I could reach out to for support when I had, like, different questions, or, like, problems that I was facing. So I really value being a part of those communities, and I feel like I also learn a lot from them.Link

And I think it's also why, like, I feel like I have such a large community. Like, even when I was in SF this past week, like, one of my friends was like, "How are you even hearing about, like, social things to do?" But I feel like it's just because I have my hands...Link

LubaAre there social things in SF? What are the...Link

KathrynFor sure.Link

LubaWhat are the types of social things?Link

KathrynWell...Link

LubaI'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.Link

KathrynSan Francisco Freedom Club.Link

LubaYeah.Link

RajyaWas that good?Link

LubaSee, Kathryn's like, "Cut, cut."Link

KathrynI feel like, because I was there for Fleet Week, it was, like, a big thing. Which is funny, because my dad is actually really into planes, and so I find planes to, like, not be super interesting, because I grew up always, like, looking at them. And everyone in Fleet Week was, like, deeply fascinated by all these planes. Like, they're cool, but, like, I'm actually kind of scared of flying, so I don't really need to look at more planes.Link

LubaI think in SF there are quite a few different communities now. There is obviously the more conservative community. Then there is the Arena Magazine community. Then there are some other magazines. Then there is the hacker house. There is YC. How would you classify the types of people that live in SF right now? Or do you feel like they all converge into one? And Rajya?Link

RajyaThe visual I just got was, like, in *Mean Girls*, when she's talking about all the different tables.Link

LubaOh, yeah, yeah, yeah.Link

RajyaYou know, where they're like...Link

LubaYeah. What are the tables? What are the tables?Link

KathrynI actually think about that a lot. I was talking about that with someone recently, where, like, I try to visualize social ecosystems, because I think it's just kind of interesting. So yeah, I feel like in SF, it's, like, yeah, the hacker house, which typically aligns with, like, the SF, like, YC people. There's definitely a lot of, like, YC, hacker house stuff. There's, like, Asian people who rave, and...Link

LubaWait, who are the Asian people who rave? Is there intersection between the...Link

KathrynWell, I feel like everyone, LOL, is, like, low-key a founder. But, like, it just depends on where they...Link

LubaDoes it feel like that in SF? I mean, I've been in SF from 2016. I first started coming to SF in 2013.Link

KathrynYeah.Link

LubaAnd I literally feel like I haven't moved anywhere, but it's definitely changed as far as the founder goes.Link

KathrynYou think so?Link

LubaI mean, yeah, everyone is a low-key founder right now. And I feel like there's very much a vibe of, if you're not a founder, what are you doing with your life? You're kind of, like, a muggle and not a magician. And it's, you know, everyone wants to be a magician. You're a muggle.Link

KathrynWait, that's funny. Actually, when I was at the Forbes 30 Under 30, someone called the random other college attendees muggles.Link

LubaI think that's sad. There's so many valuable things you can be doing with your life. But obviously, being a founder is, quote unquote, cool, but it's, like, everywhere in SF now.Link

KathrynYeah, yeah. I guess, like, do you think SF is fun?Link

LubaYeah, definitely. I still really love SF. I think it depends on the type of fun you like having. But there is something very unique and special about the fact that people in SF, as you said, are very intellectual. They're curious. They're trying to envision how to make the world a better place. And obviously, you know, that also slightly contradicts with the fact that you might just be building B2B SaaS. Nothing against B2B SaaS. But I think there's this grandeur around changing the world, and then it realizes itself in a lot of different shapes, which are not necessarily directly impacting or changing the lives of people. So I find that very interesting. It's an interesting juxtaposition of personalities and values. And, yeah, I really like the discussions. I like that people are thinking about, like, ambition, and how...Link