KevinZhang

LubaKevin, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. It's always such a pleasure.Link

KevinThank you for having me. It's a real honor. Yeah.Link

LubaOkay, so I obviously did some research looking up what you have said on Bain Capital Ventures' website. And I'm very curious about this thing that you wrote. So you wrote that "I spent too much time thinking that only other people get to be entrepreneurs, venture investors, business executives, or have an impact on the world." And this was your answer to the question, what would you say to your younger self? So who were the other people in your head back then? Who were those other people that got to be entrepreneurs, VCs, etc.?Link

KevinI mean, I think that, you know, I owe everything to my parents. But it's also true that, like, no one in my family or that they knew were like in business or like on TV. And so I had this sense that there's sort of like, you know, this, like, literal pane of glass, you know, between, like, me and the people that I knew and the world that I knew of, and, like, the people who do stuff that, you know, is newsworthy on television.Link

And so I think, you know, I felt like there was a separation there where like, you know, I live in a certain world, and those worlds don't cross that much. I think it's what I try to express. And I think what I realized is like, you know, they are just as human as the rest of us. And, you know, we all have skills and abilities that can have that level of impact. And I wish I had that confidence sooner.Link

LubaSo when do you feel like you started having that confidence? When were you like, I'm now one of the others?Link

KevinI'm hoping to have that within the next few years.Link

LubaBecause you still...Link

KevinI feel it right now, being here with you. Of course.Link

LubaOf course. See now. YouTube is even bigger than TV, so this is even more impressive.Link

KevinYeah, I guess I think about it less as... Yeah, I just want to be clear, but I think about it less as, like, being on screens, you know. Like, I don't... I think some people... I don't have a craving for that kind of attention. But I think it's more like, could I be the one to make these decisions about, you know, millions of dollars or billions of dollars of investment? You know, like, could I be the person to serve as somebody's board member?Link

It's been a real process, you know. My first time sitting in on board meetings, you know, like, I would, like, sit all the way in the back corner. In fact, I was on this board with a relatively well-known investor and, you know...Link

LubaWas the investor... Can you name...Link

KevinWell, I shouldn't. But I, like, remember that at one point I saw that he was out of Diet Coke. So I, like, got up and I grabbed a Diet Coke for him. And afterwards my partner, who I was in the board meeting with, was like, don't do that. You know? I mean, it's like, you know, you're not here to do that.Link

LubaThat's very sweet of you, though. But yeah.Link

KevinI think so. But I think it's a good illustration of, like, I came from a sort of mentality about what my role could be.Link

LubaYeah. A more hierarchical mentality, it sounds like.Link

KevinYeah, it's taken me a while to feel comfortable.Link

LubaSo at which point did you gain the confidence to, you know, write the multiple million dollar checks, or maybe even multiple hundreds of million dollar checks? And when did you start feeling like you are a good board member?Link

KevinI think it's been a process. And also I think there's no, at least in my mind, there's no, like, firm threshold. You know, there are things that probably I've gotten better at. There's experience that I now have that I think is valuable, but I'm sure there are still ways in which I'm improving. You know, in fact, I hired a coach this year to just, like, do a 360 with all the founders I work with so that I can get more honest feedback, because I'm sure there's still more hill climbing to do. But I think...Link

LubaActually, for anyone listening, a 360 review is a very comprehensive review that you do on someone where you ask a lot of their colleagues, subordinates, founders in your case, that the person is working with. And then the person who does the review gives you a comprehensive analysis of how you're doing, what the anonymous feedback is, so you can improve.Link

KevinYes, exactly.Link

And so I think, as with investing, you know, I think probably my personal journey was more, you know, I made some seed investments. So I felt like, okay, I could bet, you know, a few hundred thousand dollars, then a few million dollars. And as some of those turned out, you know, to be interesting, or, you know, to be top performers in some of our funds, then I feel like, okay, like, I have a direction I feel, you know, confident in.Link

But there are probably times along the way where I feel like I had a sense like, you know, we need to be in business with this person, this company. And I doubted, like, my ability to discern that. And by the way, in some ways I was wrong, you know, as well. But in some cases I was right. And I think in the venture business, you know, you sort of wish, you know, that you'd sort of believed in yourself sooner.Link

LubaMm-hmm. Interesting. But in the venture business, it also takes a really long time to see whether your bets are actually correct. For anyone listening who is trying to build up confidence, what would your advice to them be? Confidence in whatever they are doing.Link

KevinYeah. You know, I can only tell you what works for me. Not that it's perfect. But the fake it till you make it thing hasn't really worked for me. You know, there's this sort of framework people talk about now about, like, imposter syndrome. You know, that people feel like they're unqualified. And, you know, my honest take is that in many cases, we feel that way because we are not qualified. And that is okay.Link

That is to say, like, I think it's okay to be a bit self-critical and sort of say, I actually could be better at some of these things. Or like, this is my first board meeting and, you know, I'm 25 years old, and in fact, like, I'm not an expert, you know, about a lot of things. So I guess my approach to stuff has really been like, how do I build up perspective and, you know, experience and knowledge as fast as I can? And just let kind of data points build up and capabilities build up over time. So this is sort of the slow way about it. Yeah, I'm sure that others could do better than I on this front, but that's what's worked for me.Link

LubaNo, I agree with you. I think that confidence is almost like a self-respect. Like, do you respect your own decisions? Do you commit to something and then actually follow through? And that builds up confidence. So the slow way of building confidence is actually trying a thing, probably not being that great at it at first, and then getting better and better, and then seeing that progression and being like, okay, I did that, and I feel confident that I can replicate this effort on a pretty good scale.Link

So you were employee number one on the business side at Upstart, and then you decided to make the leap to go to BCV. I have a question around what is one thing that you learned from your experience as an operator that serves you really well in your career as a VC?Link

KevinI think the context that's most valuable to me, I think, is the reality that at any early stage company, you know, it's fragile and it is never a straight line. And in fact, it's really, you know, a roller coaster. They always say that, but I'm not sure most people feel it until they experience it.Link

You know, there was probably like a six or nine month period of time where I was, you know, relatively convinced we would run out of money and liquidate the business, you know, nine months. And, you know, I was often sleeping at the office, and we had this issue where, for whatever reason, our lights at the office didn't turn off. And so, you know...Link

LubaYou were sleeping with your lights on?Link

KevinSome shade, like somewhere. It's like a slightly dark corner of the office. And I was like, you know...Link

LubaSounds intense. The true startup life.Link

KevinYeah. Like, I was like, okay, like, if this doesn't work out, I'll spend like two or three years of my life on something that, you know, no one will have ever heard of. And this is a real career, and, you know, the cost of that. But we sort of delivered what we had to, to come out the other side of that and make the economics work. And sort of the team went on, you know, obviously, to do well and sell the business.Link

But I think that it gives me a certain humility, you know, and a certain, like, growth mentality in working with founders and companies, which is to say, like, it's going to feel a lot like it's not working for a long time. And I think you have to hold on to the stuff that does feel like it's working. I think as an investor, it's not helpful to add to the anxiety of that moment, generally speaking. And you kind of have to, like, embody a certain, like, irrational belief that things will work out, because that's the only way it will. Yeah. But it can and often does.Link

So I think that's probably one of the big... I spent a lot of time in the early days of my venture career... I was like, okay, it's all about, like, making introductions. It's all about, like, you know, customers. And it is about that, too. But I actually think a lot of the job is just, like... the rarer thing these days actually is belief. You know, like really believing in someone before other people do, before it's obvious, you know, and believing that they will succeed and acting like that, and not adding to their emotional ups and downs, but hopefully being a bit of a rock for them, you know, when they need you to be. I'm not perfect at that, you know. But I've come to see that as actually a really valuable and rare thing.Link

LubaYeah, that's a great point. And I bet that's a very hard skill for a VC, for an investor, to develop, because in the end of the day, you're betting so much money on this person hopefully making the thing work and giving you the return that you bet your career on. So being stoic and being supportive and still being a believer is something that you really need to tap into in the darker moments.Link

Because I've seen it so many times where... I've actually even seen it with myself, where, you know, in shutting down my company, the majority of people, which I'm so grateful to them, through, you know, the pivot that we were going through, when we pivoted, they were really supportive and they were still, like, very much believers. And some people in my cap table, not too many of them, but some just kind of ghosted me, and were like, okay, you know, you decided to do the pivot, whatever. Like, I'll just kind of write you off. And that sucks. That's understandable also, because it's the reality of how VCs operate and how they see returns.Link

But I do agree that some of the best people that I've seen operate, not even just with me, but with founders that I know, had that irrational belief in them. And that belief propels the founders to believe that things are going to work, because it's always great to have, like, people who believe in you in your corner. So, yeah, that's a great point.Link

KevinYeah. This is a concept that my colleague and I talk about, this word, you know, this word hyperstition.Link

LubaNo, I don't.Link

KevinSo superstition is like, I think, a lot of people, you know, believe, but it's kind of unprovable. Yeah. The concept of hyperstition is something that, like, if enough people believe it, it becomes true.Link

LubaYeah, 100%.Link

KevinYou know, and I do think there is some element of that. Not, you know, not always, but I think more likely. You know, I think there's a magic, I think, to believing in people.Link

LubaNo, 100%, because if you believe in something strongly and crazily enough, then you're going to align your actions with your beliefs too. And it's not just you who's believing that. Then you will be propelled even further to make the thing happen, because there is so much collective energy that believes in making the thing happen. So yeah, 100%.Link

KevinThe more people...Link

LubaYeah.Link

KevinYeah, exactly. Manifesting.Link

LubaI didn't want to go there, but...Link

KevinYes.Link

LubaOkay. So how did you actually make the decision to go to Bain? What's the story?Link

KevinWell, the story is, you know, I think my thinking was that even, like, ten years ago when I joined Bain, it was becoming more and more clear that there were going to be a lot of venture firms. There were a lot more venture dollars, you know, supply, than true demand for those dollars from, like, you know, outlier founders and companies. And so I think it was clear to me even then that you have to have a unique value proposition.Link

And to me, I think the idea of building a venture firm, you know, Bain Capital Ventures, inside one of the world's largest investment managers... You know, Bain Capital manages $200 billion across not just venture capital investing, but credit and life sciences and real estate and private equity. And there is unbelievable power in that network and that experience and perspective, even for, and especially, frankly, for founders at the earliest stages, if we can make that work.Link

I mean, you know, we're the only team that's chosen to build this venture partnership inside of an institution like that, because it's not easy to do. But I think if we could pull it off, I think there is something really special we can bring to the ecosystem. So that was important to me.Link

LubaOkay, so tell me a bit more about how that actually works. So obviously Bain is this big institutional asset manager conglomerate with a bunch of different verticals. Bain Capital Ventures, rather, is just one vertical, one team, a small team, relatively, in comparison. So how do you guys actually work together? How do you take advantage of all that institutional knowledge, industry knowledge that you mentioned?Link

KevinYeah, I think there's a number of ways that it can work. I think the most direct, people would think about, would be, you know, we have a unique customer network.Link

LubaSo you're actually helping early stage founders with customers. Okay.Link

KevinYeah. So, you know, we work with the company MaintainX, that is a, you know, operations and AI platform in industrials. And, you know, Bain Capital owns a number of industrial companies in building materials, supply, and, you know, small manufacturing. And so, you know, we have the ability to connect them with a different set of customers and relationships than the typical, like, Silicon Valley based firm. And, you know, like to say, like, we can help you get Airbnb or Coinbase as customers, for sure. But could we connect you with the world's largest manufacturer of some automotive components, or the country's largest aggregate supplier of building materials? Like, that's a really different network.Link

My partner Alyssa and I work with... we have an investment in a company called Soco, which is in rare earth recycling. And they are in the process of, you know, determining their early customers and offtake partners. And it turns out that our colleagues own one of the world's foremost advanced materials and magnet suppliers, a company called Proterial. And so we were able to connect them. We actually arranged a Japanese translator, you know, as part of that meeting. And so, you know, being able to connect founders with that kind of network, I think, is really special. That's one element.Link

LubaYeah.Link

KevinI think there's a reputational thing, because we're active in those markets. Even if we don't own the specific company, they may have heard of the Bain Capital brand, and they may think of it more positively.Link

Or, as a founder I work with... this is sort of a specious example, but he went home for the holidays with his long-term girlfriend, and so he was meeting his, like, prospective father-in-law. And he's like, oh, so what do you do? He's like, well, I'm a founder, I'm CTO of this company. And his father-in-law was pretty unimpressed. And he said, oh, and we're, like, backed by Bain Capital. And the guy was like, oh, those guys don't make any bad investments.Link

LubaYeah. That's amazing. Well, it seems like you're a full stack investor. Not just the company and the business, but also...Link

KevinI like that term, actually. It's something we've been thinking about, which is this concept that, like, especially in this, like, post-AGI era, the most ambitious founders need full stack capitalism. You know, that is to say, like, not only capital that understands the venture market and the venture ecosystem, but that understands the full spectrum of, you know, how finance enables people to build businesses. They need equipment finance. They might need real estate expertise.Link

They might, you know... if I think about examples like our company Crusoe, that we've been involved with since the Series A, you know, they are building data centers for the hyperscalers. And, you know, they need expertise in all aspects, you know, of financing in those ecosystems in order to be successful.Link

LubaYeah. That's amazing. And now that, you know, every company is going to be, in a way, a technology company, that becomes even more important.Link

On that note, because you personally, even just in this answer, you mentioned a rare earth metals company, a data center company. You invest in infra and AI. You've invested in crypto as well. Like, how do you stay sharp in each of those domains? Because there are investors that just go deep in one subject. But you're more... I don't want to call you a generalist, because you don't invest in absolutely everything. But...Link

KevinIt's become a bad word, to be a generalist.Link

LubaYeah.Link

KevinBut I think that's the reason I've come to terms with it, I think. I think you're absolutely right. I think the benefit of being a specialist, you see, like, I'm in your industry, like, I'm a fintech investor, you know, or you are a technology... like, I'm an AI investor, whatever that would mean, given how broad that concept is. Like, I think that one of the benefits is that, you know, any incremental knowledge you learn is, like, useful to a broader share of your portfolio. And any incremental relationship you build is useful to a broader share of your portfolio.Link

And one of the challenges I have is, like, I get, you know, I get pulled in a lot of different directions. And so I think I've just come to terms with, like, it's unfortunately a worse lifestyle. You know, it just requires more time. Yeah, but I think it's worth it to be able to work with the best players and teams, and to be able to make bets on, you know, new trends that emerge irrespective of whether it's...Link

I think the challenge is, like, if you, like, become focused on a certain industry or thesis area, like, you end up choosing the best within that area. And, you know, there are just years and decades where, like, very little changes about a certain industry, and that can happen. And so I think I've chosen to be really focused on, do I think that, you know, this is sort of... is this a team that's unique, and sort of the right team at the right time?Link

LubaHow do you know where to focus, though? Is there a period? Is it seasonal? Like, this year, you know, maybe you're more into... I don't know if that's true... more into AI, because that's the heaviest thing happening. Or maybe last year it was more into, like, dog longevity and FDA approvals. Like, how do you know where to spend your time? Because I'm sure you're getting bombarded with a variety of pitches in a variety of areas.Link

KevinI think I've decided the evergreen approach is to just be around, you know, star talent early in their career. And that's been a big part of my life. I ran the entrepreneurship club in college, and so my work has been around helping, you know, very early career entrepreneurial talent, you know, figure out their path to building a, you know, market-shifting company. And so, you know, we have certain approaches to doing that. You know, we have a fellowship program, for example, that we're trying to...Link

LubaThat you've built out?Link

KevinWell, yeah. With our team. Yeah. You know, that tries to sort of put together some of the, you know, most rising stars.Link

LubaSo basically your approach is meet potential founders really, really early. I remember a couple of years ago, you were just starting out with your team, the fellowship program. And I think it's even college students. Correct me if I'm wrong.Link

KevinIt's actually for people a few years out of...Link

LubaA few years after college.Link

Kevin...a few years into their career. These days, some people...Link

LubaI see. Yeah.Link

KevinYeah. It's actually, I would say, it's interesting. Like, there are a lot of college fellowships. And so we actually felt like that was a well-addressed market.Link

LubaOkay. Got it. So, but then you're also personally keeping tabs on the Columbia network, right? I think you're mentoring a bunch of people who are early in their career. So your approach, just to reiterate, is to stay in touch with early talent, or talent that just has a couple of years of professional experience, and then see what they come up with. And then they come to you with the ideas that they are thinking about. And those ideas obviously happen to be in a bunch of different markets.Link

KevinYeah. I think, like, you know, I think I'm just a, you know, neural net for predicting future career outcomes based on, like, a meeting with the person and their prior accomplishments. Yeah. And so what I have is the benefit of, like, a lot more data points than most people, because I started doing this a long time ago, before I became a venture investor. And so, you know, my hope is that my ability to discern that potential benefits from having done it for a longer time and seeing more trajectories.Link

LubaSo let's say you meet a founder. Within the next 30 seconds you probably know, okay, are they going to do something interesting in their career or not? What is this based on?Link

KevinI would say it's not that precise.Link

LubaOkay.Link

KevinYeah. I would say it's more like they might stand out either to the upside or to the downside. But also a lot of people are kind of in the middle. And I think that's okay for what we do, because I think as long as some people stand out to the upside, those are the people you would end up sort of focusing on.Link

And there probably are also people who are like, this person is, you know, obviously great, but it's also obvious to everyone else. So there's not a lot that I could add. And so that's also an area that's probably less compelling to us, to me.Link

LubaSo your sweet spot then is people who are more in the middle, where you could be helpful with something?Link

KevinOr I think they clearly stand out as having high potential that is not yet fully recognized.Link

LubaYeah. And what are some criteria for that high potential? Like, what could it be? What types of things are you impressed with?Link

KevinI think these days everyone works hard, you know, and, you know, everyone's willing to grind in a way. So I think questions are, like, what are the more rare things?Link

LubaYeah.Link

KevinAnd I think one would be independent thinking. That is to say, like, do they say things, you know, like, when I call them, that's really interesting or different? It's counter-narrative, or it's at a level of depth that you wouldn't get from a McKinsey Institute report, you know, on a certain market. Right. I think that is, you know, actually pretty rare. We live in, like, a super consensus time, you know?Link

And so it's like people who are, like, thinking about problems those people aren't thinking about. Like, there's a team I work with that, like, three years ago, was like, oh, there's this, like, new class of drugs called GLP-1s, and they're going to be huge. And, you know, they're kind of like diabetes drugs that actually you could use for weight loss. And I was like, that's crazy. You know? But like, you know...Link

LubaDid you end up investing in that company?Link

Kevin...months before. Yeah. And we did end up investing in the company. Actually, it's like a top performer in there.Link

LubaWow. What's the company?Link

KevinIt's called... they're going to launch soon.Link

LubaOh. Got it.Link

KevinWell, sorry, just because they're changing their...Link

LubaNo worries. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So does that mean that they've already been on the market?Link

KevinBut it's over a $1 billion valuation within, like, two and a half years.Link

LubaWow. Yeah, that's crazy. I'm always surprised with those examples where companies are in stealth for a while and then they raise at a crazy valuation. It happens a lot in crypto. It happens a lot in, I guess, like, drug development too. But that's a completely different space, where you actually need a lot of capital to develop drugs.Link

But in this case, because you're saying that they're crushing it, they're doing so well, like, where exactly is it that they're crushing? They're already on the market with their products? They're just in stealth because they're changing their name, or...?Link

KevinYeah, they're already on the market with their product. They sell to enterprise customers, to pharma companies. And they believe that there is a network effect to their business, and that they've figured out something that very few people have. And so they want to reach escape velocity with respect to scale before they start saying too much about, you know, what they figured out. Just the approach is, you know, valuable, they think, to patients and doctors and pharma companies.Link

LubaGot it. That makes a lot of sense.Link

KevinI think the point here is, like, that original thinking...Link

LubaYeah, yeah, yeah. It's really rare. How can someone develop their original thinking?Link

KevinI guess you could start by asking yourself, like, what are some of the things... you know, it's that classic kind of, like, Peter Thiel question of, like, what do you believe that, like, other people don't believe?Link

LubaYeah. Yeah.Link

KevinI think that's sort of, like, the instinct, in a way. I think the other thing would be to, like, you know, fall in love with the subject area, or, like, build enough, like, deep, you know, expertise in it that you trust your instincts about it more than you trust, like, expert opinion about it. That could also be the case. Like, you just form opinions about something maybe that others haven't studied that closely, or that, you know, your experiences on the ground are more novel, or reach a different segment, or come from a different perspective. And so you come to a different conclusion.Link

LubaYeah. I have a question about judgment. So you've obviously been doing this for a really long time, going on ten years. How do you refine your own judgment? Do you keep track of your experiences with someone, your impressions of them, and then come back to that decision that you made in the moment and see how they're actually doing in their career? Obviously, the same with the bets that you've made. Or is there some different process?Link

KevinYeah. I think that you tend to look at the people and teams and companies you met along the way and how they've done, and I think you can infer lessons from that. You know, as you were saying, the challenge in the venture industry is, you know, something that could look good for five years and then not, you know, be a good outcome. Something could not look good for five years and then be a great outcome. And so you can't over-rotate on that.Link

I also think my challenge, and I'm curious if you feel differently, is I feel like I'm ultimately, like, very intuitive with respect to judgment. Like, I can't always fully articulate, like, why I think something is really great. But I now just, like, trust that, you know, like, my observations and the data kind of, like, compile down to some, you know, sort of primitives in my subconscious that I can't fully interpret anymore. But that, like, hopefully I'm incorporating, like, mistakes I've made and also good choices I've made, you know, in, like, my future intuitions.Link

LubaYeah, for sure. It's like pattern matching. I bet that you can lean into that more now that you're very senior at Bain. Like, if someone's, you know, an associate or an analyst, they likely have to have a very good explanation for why they have the instincts they have.Link

KevinWe try... It's funny you say that. So we've tried, especially more recently, to reduce that. I think it's dangerous, you know, because, you know, some people say, like, venture is kind of a young person's job, you know, because the world changes so fast and it's easy to become out of touch with how things work.Link

And so we tried, actually... I think one of the things that we are working on as a team is allowing people to act more on their instincts, you know, within sort of, like, reasonable controls. Sort of say, like, you know, yes, we've talked about the rational reasons to not do it, but if you have an irrational sense, like, this person is just someone we must be in business with, we try and we leave room for that for the whole team.Link

LubaThat's awesome. So given that the industry changes so much, how has VC changed, or Bain changed, from 2017 when you joined to now? What are some things that maybe are no longer true about venture?Link

KevinI think that, you know, one piece I wonder is, when I got to venture in 2017, there was this... some people would call it, like, the kind of assembly line for software as a service. You know, we had figured out all these metrics, and it was kind of like, if you have a million ARR, then you could raise a Series A, and you need an ARR of this amount. And there's all this kind of math and science that had been developed around a specific kind of company. And I kind of think that it feels like that's over.Link

LubaReally? It's over at Series A?Link

KevinWell, it's over in the sense of, like, maybe the fact that we had such a quantitative rubric in the first place... it wasn't really that venture-y. Maybe it wasn't really that risky in the first place.Link

LubaYou have a formula.Link

KevinYeah. Like, it's sort of like... I particularly work with some, like, B2B AI companies. But I also work with teams like Loyal, which, you know, we were talking about, that's trying to develop a dog longevity therapeutic. And we just have a very different set of milestones to talk about. We have a very, very unique story. And we had to come up with our own, like, definitions of when we're ready for a Series A, a Series B, and convince investors of that.Link

And in some ways it feels more like venture to me. Like, I think venture's become, you know, less formulaic. And it has a wider dispersion of kinds of things people are investing in, which I think is great, actually. But it's also more uncertain, and maybe more intellectually engaging as a result. Like, if you can't rely on these sort of numbers, at least at the early stage, then what are you relying on, you know, in order to pick? I think that's, you know, a really interesting question.Link

LubaYeah. That's true. So on that note, with AI, how are you thinking about the market? What do you think is going to happen to the market? Are you investing less in AI-first companies? Because obviously the valuations are crazy and the rounds are insane.Link

KevinWell, I think as a firm, we're very active in this area, and we were fortunate to work with a number of teams that I think have gotten very hot and are doing well, from Crusoe to Decagon to Cognition and others. I think it is true that, like, for me personally, it feels more difficult to do these AI companies right now, because it feels so consensus. The prices are very high. You know, companies are raising a lot of money on not a lot of progress, and maybe on, like, initial ideas that feel small. Or, like, I think everyone's around the table like, this person is great, you know, we'll worry about the idea later. Which is fine, but you can only do so many of those at a price that looks really high before you wonder, like, whether the risk-reward is good.Link

So, I don't know, I think the things I think about are, like, you know, new businesses that couldn't happen without AI, but maybe aren't selling the AI directly. So, like, could AI enable marketplaces or network businesses? And I think about, what are some other themes that are exciting but underinvested in? You know, two years ago, I feel like longevity was still at this, like, tail end of being really transgressive. I think where we sit today, it feels like everyone's talking about longevity. There's, like, gyms advertising longevity.Link

LubaThere are so many private social clubs now that advertise longevity. For instance, here in New York, a couple of weeks ago, I found out about this club called Continuum that charges $10,000 a month for access to a private gym, to a hyperbaric chamber, to, like, a red light room. And I think maybe, like, two more things.Link

KevinYeah. It's insane. Yes. It's become a bit like, you know... I think when we made that investment, I think that would have been hard to imagine, that mainstream.Link

LubaYeah. And, you know, I think it's still hard to imagine that this specific business will be very successful, just because I think the price to the ROI is not very high. But we'll see, obviously.Link

KevinYes. Of Continuum. Yeah.Link

Well, I think there will be more interesting kind of, you know, maybe very science-driven longevity technologies that can emerge too, depending on policy. So I think I'm looking for that too, is, like, what are the things that people aren't...Link

Another area I'm thinking about is, it feels like autonomy is here. Yeah. Like, self-driving cars are being deployed. You can take a Waymo in San Francisco any time. You know, the administration just released a new executive order around pilots of electric vertical takeoff and landing planes. You know, that could change a lot of things, but it doesn't feel like anyone is talking about the second order implications of this yet. And that would be, like, one example of an area where it feels like there's real technology change, but there's not a lot of discussion around the business opportunities.Link

LubaSo what is your consumption stack? How do you keep tabs on all these different changes that are happening? How do you think about second order effects? Maybe you have a writing practice where, very diligently, every week you're like, okay, I've heard about this thing, like this... what is it, approval that the administration has had about the pilots. And then you write down what are the things that could happen and what companies could emerge. Tell me more about your process.Link

KevinWell, I think a key ingredient, of course, is, you know, early career people who have chosen to go into, like, something different. We actually met Loyal, the dog longevity company we work with, through their chief of staff. So their chief of staff was a fellow in our program, and we didn't sort of invite him thinking we would want to invest in Loyal eventually. But we got to learn more about the opportunity and understand it in a way that otherwise we would not have. And so part of this was, like, you know, talking to people who are working on these frontiers. And not only the people, but also, of course, the people who work in AI right now.Link

LubaYeah.Link

KevinBut I think also, I guess, something... and you meet a lot of... you tell me if this is different or not. But I think that a lot of investors are technology people. They, like, spend a lot of time studying, like, the latest, you know, capabilities, which I care about as well. But I'm, like, really a people, society, you know, kind of world affairs type person, too. Like, I read a lot of, like, Wall Street Journal, and I probably listen less to, like, the All-In podcast and more to, like, you know, Bloomberg Law. Or I'm really into, like, the Ross Douthat podcast right now, where it's more like, what are the big picture, like, societal challenges we're all talking about? How are people's attitudes changing?Link

And I think USV talks about this, but, like, I think it is as much a determinant of success of companies. Which is sort of like, there are companies that are like, this new technology enables something. But a lot of stuff is like, we decided that we can approve longevity medicines. Yeah. You know, we decided that, you know, the governments were printing too much money and we should, you know, buy cryptocurrency, right? Like, these are kind of, like, social decisions that are probably more impactful than the underlying level of technology change that enables the alternatives.Link

LubaYeah. And from this response and how you operate, I gather that everyone should just lean into what they're naturally interested in, what their natural strengths are. You've got to make the job work for you in your unique way. So for you, it's reading up about societal changes, politics, what happens in the economy. For someone else, it's, you know, being super technical and trying every new AI app under the sun. So that's really cool.Link

So you've been at Bain, as we've already pointed out, for almost a decade. How come you're not running off starting your own fund, or, you know, doing the thing that a lot of people are doing these days? Yeah. Which is, you know... what keeps you staying there for so long?Link

KevinWell, the first is that I take my commitments to founders very seriously, you know. And I think it's not a great experience to have, you know, an investor lead a financing, you know, take a board seat, and then leave the firm. And, you know, you and I both know founders that have had that happen to them. And, yeah, especially because I work with people that I've known in many cases for two, five, ten years or longer. Like, I think it's a really high bar.Link

I think the second is, I think I've always tried to be mostly centered on where can I actually add value to the ecosystem, where can I actually help founders make things happen, or help companies happen, you know, more than, like, where can we get a share of some business that's working. You know, and I feel there's still a lot to be done to, you know, help harness, like, the power of the Bain Capital ecosystem to support founders.Link

I think in some ways the market is moving in our direction, in the sense that I think all the large firms are adding private equity or credit. You know, they're adding, like, other asset classes that we've been in for a long time. And also, I think the nature of these companies, you know, that founders want to start, is evolving, and more of it relates to the rest of the world that Bain Capital is very active and credible in. So, you know, I think my North Star here really is kind of what serves the founders and prospective founders the best.Link

LubaThat makes a lot of sense. On the BCV fellowship, can you tell me a bit more about what the fellowship is, whom it's for, who should be applying, and what should someone in the fellowship expect in terms of programming?Link

KevinYeah, we don't talk about it very much publicly.Link

LubaOh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't... yeah.Link

KevinBut, you know, I think we are especially looking for people who are probably, like, two to four years into their career, or they're doing something at an interesting entrepreneurial company. It doesn't have to be, like, the most high-flying company. In fact, there are companies that are, like, sort of just figuring it out. Yeah.Link

But my observation is, like, at most great young companies in Silicon Valley, there's, like, some 24-year-old or 23-year-old everybody knows is going to go on to do something incredible. And, you know, they probably have outsized impact. And we just want to meet all those people, basically. Like, I interned in college at this company called Addepar. And the summer after I interned, they had...Link

LubaDid you work with Pierre?Link

KevinI don't think so. Yeah. I don't know about that. Yeah. But, like, the summer after I interned, they had, like, Alexandr Wang from Scale. The summer after that, they had Scott Wu as an intern.Link

And, you know, I just think, like, the Valley has a way of, like, promoting people really fast, giving, like, young people who are exceptional a lot of responsibility. A lot of those people end up starting companies and being somebody impactful regardless. And we want to get to know as many of that type of person, you know, as possible.Link

And we've created a program by which, I think, the value proposition for them is, we've crafted it around the realization that their schedule is probably 996, you know. And so this is sort of like, you know, you have one day off a week. You know, we will try to fit into that day something you probably would have done anyway. We surround you with, you know, 25 other people that I think would be really helpful to know. You can learn from them. You know, maybe you'll collaborate with or be co-founders with them someday. And we'll inject sort of, like, our, you know, network and capabilities into that. So, you know, that is, like, you know, great speakers working at the frontier of technology, but also, you know, guests from the economy beyond Silicon Valley.Link

LubaMm-hmm. That's really awesome. And I assume that people come to the program through referral and word of mouth, probably, because if someone's already working at a breakout startup, then they're in the periphery of the network. But do you have cases where someone has reached out to you, you've met them kind of cold, and then they became a fellow? Or that doesn't really happen? Like, you've got to be already in the circles?Link

KevinWe so rarely talk about it publicly.Link

LubaGot it.Link

KevinIt's hard for them to come to us for that reason. But there might be people who, you know, are highly recommended to us as people we should just get to know, you know. And then we can, you know, reorient that conversation.Link

LubaThat makes sense. Okay. I have one personal question, as in, advice that I would love to hear from you to me. And then we're going to move to rapid fire.Link

KevinOkay.Link

LubaOkay. So I've mentioned this to you in our catch-up, that I want to be a little more active in angel investing, because I've had the opportunity to do so. And I've almost always angel invested passively, where a friend is building something great, maybe someone would pass me a deal, and I know something about the space, and it looks great. But now that I want to become a little more active in it, how would you recommend I go about becoming better at discerning whether a company is worth investing in and not? Like, how do I basically become a better investor, given that this is not a skill that I've explicitly built out?Link

KevinIn some ways I hesitate, because I feel like the beauty of the ecosystem is, like, everyone looks at things differently, you know. And there is, like, kind of somebody for everyone. And so, like, who knows, you know? Like, I have a certain judgment, which may or may not be right.Link

But I guess, like, you know, maybe there's generic advice, and there's, like, kind of some things that I nudge people on. So, like, I think the generic advice is, like, ideally you're seeing a lot, if that makes sense. Or, like, you are only doing something that comes to you from, like, very specific sources.Link

LubaYeah.Link

KevinSo you might do something like... something that's like, okay, you're going to focus on building, like, your personal brand and presence, and on being someone that people want to work with. And then you'll just take... I will only participate in rounds that are led by people that I know and like...Link

LubaHopefully like Kevin.Link

KevinExactly. Yeah.Link

But if you're going to do, like, I'm going to be the first investor in stuff, you know, and I'm going to help you get a round together, then maybe you just want to make sure you're seeing a high volume, because, you know, the competitive basis changes, the profiles change from year to year.Link

LubaI have a quick question on high volume. When you're saying seeing high volume, is it, like, just seeing their deck, or is it actually taking the pitch?Link

KevinI think, like, 80% of the information is in the pitch, is in meeting the person.Link

LubaYeah, exactly. So basically, first, free up a ton of time to see a lot of things.Link

KevinI will say, though, like, I think it's relatively unlikely that... like, the correlation between the deck being interesting... sorry, like, the cases where the deck is uninteresting and the founder is really interesting is, like, pretty low.Link

LubaLow. Yeah.Link

KevinI don't mean pretty, you know, but just, like...Link

LubaIt's just low. Yeah.Link

KevinIf the thinking in the deck is not that compelling, the thinking of the founder is unlikely to be that compelling there.Link

My personal nudges would be, like, you know, I'm just all about... I think the real danger is, like, I love the idea, I don't love the person. I think that, like, almost never works. Yeah. Maybe in, like, consumer, you know, because, like, the company can run away from you, right?Link

LubaYeah. But I think no matter what, you kind of got to vibe with the person.Link

KevinYeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Presumably you're, like, less likely to be like, I hate the person, but I'm going to give my personal money. But I think, for sure, there's that vibe element. But I also think there's an element of, like, you know, which things are you willing to trade off on? And for me, like, you know, I've always regretted, you know, trading off on, like, how much I love the person.Link

LubaMm-hmm. Got it. Awesome. Well, let's move to the rapid fire question round. First, what is the check size that you usually put in? Or range?Link

Kevin$4 million. Usually involved at the seed, and then we'll reinvest. For me, yeah, usually involved at the seed and reinvest over time. Yeah. Obviously, my partnership, you know, 15 for a Series A, you know, 30 for a Series B and C, etc.Link

LubaGot it. What's the biggest check you've personally written?Link

Kevin$35 million.Link

LubaDamn. That's a lot of money.Link

KevinYeah, for a team I work with, where we did the Series A, and they've got... well, yeah, Hightouch. They just announced... oh, yeah, they just announced they crossed 100 million.Link

LubaOh my God, congratulations. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, I've heard about Hightouch over the years, actually. Marty Kausas from Pylon, I think he was their roommate.Link

KevinHe was. Yeah. They were at a very famous hacker house...Link

LubaIn Mission Control. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. You're a big foodie. Favorite restaurant in San Francisco?Link

KevinOh, you know, I like food, but...Link

LubaFoodie? Okay. You're a food connoisseur.Link

KevinI occasionally... eat occasionally at nice restaurants.Link

LubaFavorite restaurant?Link

KevinYeah. I wish it was more under the radar, but our office is near Four Kings, and so I do put my name down often.Link

LubaFour Kings. Oh, it's the Chinese place. Oh, I've heard about it, but I've never been.Link

KevinI would say... my friends would say it's not, strictly speaking, a Chinese place. It's, like, actually a very Chinese American place.Link

LubaOkay.Link

KevinYeah. Like, you know, part of what I love about it is, you go and, like, their playlist is, like, what my mother's playlist would have been, like, on my way to, like, choir practice, you know, growing up. Yeah. So there's, like, a certain nostalgia. But it has Chinese flavors; I wouldn't say it's a Chinese restaurant.Link

LubaOkay. That's really cool. I've got to check it out. If you weren't in venture, what would you be doing?Link

KevinIt's not a job... Oh, sorry. So, first of all, I think if money were no object and career advancement were equal, you know, I think there's a good chance I would have done the Foreign Service.Link

LubaOh, wow. That's amazing.Link

KevinI think in practice, it seems more hierarchical. It seems like a long time, you know. But, like, that's what fascinates me. Like, the interaction between, you know, world leaders, and, you know, how that comes together into conflict or collaboration, and the results, you know. That's really interesting to me.Link

One thing I thought about, you know, like, if I'm fortunate for this, you know, to all work out, and I sort of can work more for fun, is being a political talent scout. So I guess the idea is, like, you go to...Link

LubaIt's, like, VC, but for politics.Link

KevinYeah, exactly. Well, it doesn't... there's no money involved. But, like, you go to, like, school districts or something. Like, someone who's running for a board of education in their town, where, like, if you donate $100, it's, like, a lot of money, you know, on a relative basis. But you just, like, sort of find these people who are finding their voice, and they have a unique perspective to give, and they have the charisma or the force of personality, or they, you know, have some vision that could benefit their community, or some voice that would be valuable to have in our national conversation. And you can sort of be, like, the first believer in that. I think that's kind of cool. It's not that dissimilar, I guess, to venture.Link

LubaBut that's really cool. I mean, yeah, okay.Link

KevinI'm sure these people exist. I just...Link

LubaOh, you don't know if they exist?Link

KevinI'm sure they exist. Yeah, I've never met one.Link

LubaBut that's really cool. It's kind of like music. There are actually people who support a young artist and scout a young artist, and patron. Exactly. It's like a patron. Yeah. Awesome.Link

KevinWe can't do that in politics. But yeah. Probably it doesn't work politically.Link

LubaBut okay. What's the personal trait that you're most grateful for?Link

KevinI am very grateful that I don't tend to experience strong swings of emotion.Link

LubaMm-hmm, mm-hmm. I can relate, actually.Link

KevinYeah. I think it's very helpful. I think as I've gotten older... I would say, like, when I was younger, it was a little more extreme. I would say I repressed feeling almost anything. And as I've gotten older, I'm trying to, like, channel it better. Like, if I'm feeling frustrated, like, recognizing why I do and trying to, you know, make that better.Link

But I do think this is one of those jobs where, like, you know, managing how you feel... You know, I still have swings of, like, you know, there's, like, confidence and self-criticism. But in terms of, like, anger or stuff like that, you know, I feel like I try hard to be quite even-tempered.Link

LubaDid you do something to be more even-tempered? Was it just feeling your emotions when they come, or something else?Link

KevinI think I came to realize relatively early in life that nothing good comes of it.Link

LubaMm-hmm. Very wise. Yeah.Link

Okay. Who's the founder you wish you'd backed, but you ended up passing?Link

KevinThat's a good question. I'm trying to think. Well, you know, like, in probably 2021, 2020... this is less specific to the founder, who was great. But 2022, we met this company that was using generative adversarial models. Do you remember the GAN era? Like, they're like, oh, you can use GANs to, like, create images, you know, and it, like, sort of worked. But they're like, we can build a new, like, AI-native, like, generative design tool around this. And so we met this company, Runway, at the time.Link

That was at sort of roughly the seed stage. And it was a really difficult round for them to raise. But I think that there was always something really compelling in that vision, you know. That's sort of like, you know, imagine a future where, you know, we didn't have to, like, hand paint each thing, but that, you know, we could generate, you know, art or video. And, you know, that seemed radical, you know, at the time. But I think it's now, I guess, relatively consensus.Link

LubaYeah. That's awesome. What's a metric that founders over-index on? Revenue?Link

KevinBy the way?Link

LubaYeah. Interesting.Link

KevinYeah. I think revenue is important.Link

LubaYeah. You know, but I feel like revenue has become so much more important these days.Link

KevinYeah. I think that what we've come to realize is sort of like, you know, something I was thinking about again, now that I work with teams that are both kind of B2B technology and not, is, like, in some ways, like, having a million or 3 million or 10 million in revenue is a big accomplishment. But in some ways, like, in the grand scheme of venture, like, it doesn't matter. You know, like, it means, like, you have momentum, it means you have, like, product-market fit, you know.Link

But, like, what it means about your ability to reach $1 billion in revenue, which maybe is the new bar to go public, or, you know, have a great outcome... Because it seems to me, like, you can get to 100 to 200 million in run rate, which is a lot of money, by the way.Link

LubaYeah. It's like, oh, that's easy, whatever. Like, impossible to do.Link

KevinOn its own. But, like, you get there, and actually, if there's some ceiling, or, you know, you lose momentum, like, it's not clear, you know, what those businesses are worth. And so I sort of think it's more like, what is your... you know, how much does this prove that you can get to, you know, $1 billion of revenue? And I think that's sort of, like, more important in some ways than, like, the specific numbers in a given moment. Even though, obviously, specific numbers in any given moment tell you, you know, likelihoods or trajectory or momentum or something like that.Link

LubaYeah. Totally fair. And that's where I think founders have to be so honest with themselves. So, like, can they actually get to venture scale? Because it all sounds great that you're making money and you're building a business, but will that business actually be worth anything, or go to the outcome that it needs to go to? That's the question. And there is that dual perception from the VC side and the founder's side. Because on the founder's side, you're like, oh my God, I'm making money, this is a real thing. But then on the VC side, it's like, okay, is this actually going to be real? Fair.Link

What's your favorite book? Doesn't matter if it's nonfiction or fiction.Link

KevinI think a book I read fairly early in college that kind of changed my mindset about things. This book called *Dead Aid* by Dambisa Moyo. As maybe is now obvious from this conversation, I was, like, a Model UN kid growing up. And, you know, this book is about the way in which foreign aid to developing countries hinders, rather than benefits, their economic development.Link

And I think for me, it's, you know, whether you fully agree with the thesis or not, I think it was an early example for me of, like, questioning the expert status quo, and, like, questioning whether, like, you know, the right intentions lead to the right outcomes. And sort of, like, trying to put a higher bar on, like, you know, what actually... does a set of incentives, or does a set of systems you create, you know, actually lead to the outcome that you want? And that, you know, sort of led me to have a certain skepticism, yeah, you know, of the consensus in the future. But I think that's been, you know, valuable, very impactful.Link

LubaThis immediately reminds me of *Basic Economics* by Thomas Sowell, where he talks about similar...Link

KevinYeah, it's very similar.Link

LubaWhere, yeah, your intentions might be great, but, you know, all evil kind of comes from good... initially, from good intentions, is the saying. That you really need to think about second order effects and incentive structures. And things might look great on the surface level, but then when you actually dig deep to see what behaviors they create, then you might actually do the opposite of what you wanted.Link

What's your favorite podcast?Link

KevinI'm really into the Ross Douthat podcast. It's got some good guests, I'd say. I didn't grow up religious, so some of the religious topics I'm less engaged in. But I like that he is a journalist in the classic sense, if that makes sense. Like, I think he tries to push the, you know, guests, and tries to challenge them in a respectful way, but also in an informed and thoughtful way. So, you know, I've been enjoying that recently.Link

LubaAwesome. And last question. For the 25-year-old who's listening, has an idea, maybe has had it for about a year, but hasn't actually done anything with the idea, what would your advice to them be?Link

KevinOkay, they haven't emailed me yet.Link

LubaNo, they have not. Well, you don't like cold emails anyway.Link

KevinSo I think that would be a lost cause.Link

I think for me, I think in some ways, like, the idea matters to me less than how they got there, I think. But, yeah, sorry. They have an idea. It's probably because they care about some topic. They care about some customer or market. You know, and I hope they're spending a lot of time, you know, there in order to refine it. And then I hope they're asking this of themselves, like, what is the, you know... like, if I'm really ambitious, like, you know, what is the change that I could help effect here? And who do I need to help me do that, with my team, from an investment standpoint? And then reaching out to Luba and getting a warm introduction to me.Link

LubaNoted angel investor and creator. Yeah. It's funny, because I also kind of feel similarly about cold intros, or cold... We need a third person here. Yeah.Link

Well, on that note, Kevin, thank you so much for your time. It's always a pleasure.Link

KevinThank you for having me on. I'm honored to do this.Link