Dec 5, 2025 · 1 hr 28 min

MartyKausas

Co-founder & CEO of Pylon, a Series B B2B customer support software company

Marty Kausas, Co-founder of Pylon: Why 100-Hour Weeks Are Necessary To Win

In this episode

Marty Kausas, co-founder & CEO of Pylon joins Luba to open up about the real cost, mindset, and psychology behind building a company in “grind mode.” Marty recently went viral after being profiled in the Wall Street Journal for his 100 hour work week lifestyle. We talk about why he works 90–100 hour weeks, how he thinks about ambition, fun, burnout, and why he sees company-building as a 10-year board game he refuses to lose. Marty also explains how he picked his co-founders, what finally worked after years of pivots, why most people start companies for the wrong reasons, and what keeps him locked into this pace. It’s a grounded, honest look into a founder who’s both extreme and surprisingly self-aware — and why, even with all the sacrifice, he’s genuinely having the time of his life.

Why he sleeps ~6 hours, works 6 days a week, and still feels energized
How Pylon went from “living in the office” to a 55-person Series B company
Co-founder matching, pivots, and why the early years nearly broke him
The real motivators behind starting a company (and why most people get it wrong)
Why he thinks passion for a problem is overrated
What “Sprint the Marathon” means and how he measures “winning”
Why he sees startups as a competitive board game
The immigrant mentality, risk tolerance, and his obsession with acceleration
How he thinks about relationships, dating as a founder, and the cost of this lifestyle
What building Pylon has taught him about leadership, culture, trust, and pacing himself

Chapters

Introduction and Daily Schedule
Work–Life Integration
Defining Success and Win Conditions
Sustainability and Personal Sacrifice
Family Background and Upbringing
Leaving Airbnb and Starting the Journey
Finding the Right Co-founders
Deciding Roles and Company Structure
Learning from Airbnb and Role Models
Admiring Elon Musk’s Approach
Biggest Fear: Slowing Down
Life Outside Work and Relationships
Building Pylon and Providing Value
Regret Minimization and Priorities
Beliefs About Tech and Life
Daily Habits and Closing Thoughts

About the guest

Marty Kausas

Co-founder & CEO of Pylon, a Series B B2B customer support software company

Full transcript

LubaHi everyone. Welcome to The Luba Show. Today I'm talking to Marty Kausas, co-founder and CEO of Pylon, a really successful Series B B2B customer support software company. Recently, a couple of months ago, Marty was the star of a Wall Street Journal article where they talked about how the grind, the living in your office and working around the clock, is back in Silicon Valley. And they call it no fun, no joy, no play. And in the conversation with Marty, you'll actually hear that that is the opposite of truth for him. We talk a lot about his motivation, his journey building his startup.

And the funny thing is that, knowing Marty for a lot of years now, in his friend circle, we call him Marty Party. Marty is doing very little actual, literal partying right now, but in a lot of ways, he's having the most fun he's ever had. I'm excited for you to hear from Marty and get to understand his psychology. Without further ado, Marty Kausas.

Marty Party.

MartyHi, Luba.

LubaI am so excited to have you. Okay. Well, it is 6:00 a.m.

MartyYes.

LubaOr like 6:20 a.m. Tell me more about your schedule these days.

MartyOh, man. Well, this is definitely earlier than usual. Yeah, these days I'm up at 7:30. I snooze for 10 minutes, I go shower, and then I'm in the office for my first meeting, usually at 8:00 a.m. And for context, that sounds very fast to go from, you know, apartment to our office, but I'm like a block away, so I just—

LubaOh, you no longer live in the office?

MartyNo longer. Yeah. For like the past year and a half, we haven't. Yeah.

LubaGot it. Do you miss living in the office?

MartyThere's definitely a charm about living in the office, but now I think we also have so many people and, like, so many things that we need to discuss privately that it's actually really nice. So me and my co-founder still live together, but we just do it one block away.

LubaSo it's pretty much the same as living in the office, because you still live with your co-founder.

MartyYeah, it definitely— work never really goes away. Yeah.

LubaWow. How is this impacting your, like, regular life? I know you talk about work-life integration. Is there much of a life outside of work?

MartyNo. I basically— so, okay, so my schedule overall for the week is, yeah, I work Sunday through Friday, and so Saturday is kind of like my one day off. And even Saturday is kind of like half sleeping, honestly. I'm just, like, recovering from sleep.

LubaYeah, I was just talking to you before we started the pod, that you're kind of going on four and a half, six hours of sleep in the grind these days. Okay. How many hours do you sleep on average these days?

MartyOkay. So I usually go to bed between, like, 11 and 1, and then I'm up at 7:30. So let's chalk it up to— actually, when I do the math that way, it's not that bad. So—

Luba11 to 1, and then—

Marty11:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m. is when I'm usually going to bed. So let's say it's like eight and a half hours to, like, six and a half hours.

LubaOh, eight and a half to six and a half hours. So six and a half at the lower end. Yeah.

MartyOkay, that's not too bad. But then, for example, we were in Hawaii for an offsite, and we had to wake up at 5:00 a.m. every day to still do Pacific hour calls. And so that was a three-hour difference. And so we were up at 5:00 a.m. And somehow, during our offsite, which felt like it was going to be way more chill, we actually were working way more hours. So I feel like I was actually getting like three hours of sleep every night while—

LubaDo you feel like it's the adrenaline and the stress that keeps you going?

MartyYes. It must be, because I feel like there's no—

LubaNo way.

MartyYeah. There's no other way. I honestly— you know, when I used to hear about, like, people describing crazy work hours, and they're like, "Oh, like, I work, you know, X number of hours per week, let's say 90 hours per week," I would be like, "That's not really possible. I don't even, like, know how you could fit in that much work into one week." Now, I've been doing it for quite a while. And—

LubaHow long has a while been?

MartyOh, man. I mean, like, since we started the company, it's been pretty nonstop. And I actually think it's accelerated more recently. I think before, yes, it was many hours, but it felt like there was more downtime where you could, like, disconnect a little bit. Now, it feels like there's so many people and so many things and so many projects that all need your attention all at once that it's very hard to step away. So yeah, I think it's actually grindier now than it was before.

LubaAre you worried about sustainability? I think on one of your LinkedIn posts— I think it was the one after the Wall Street Journal— where you were talking about how it's only the founders' expectation to grind so hard, and then you were saying that at some point it's not going to be sustainable. Like, it's only kind of a sprint for a while.

MartyYeah. So actually, it's funny. One of our core values— we introduced our core values for the company—

LubaThree core values.

MartyThree core values. Yep. Yeah. And one of them is "sprint the marathon."

LubaOkay.

MartyAnd so actually, that one explicitly states we need to keep running. We have to run really fast right now, but then also for an extended period of time, effectively until burnout or until we win. So one of those things has to happen, or will happen. Yeah.

LubaBut how do you define winning?

MartyYeah. So for us, when we started the company, we thought about it almost like a board game. So all of us love puzzles, all of us love board games, and we thought, like, the win conditions of this board game, which is startup, is build a company that goes public at $10 billion in 10 years. And so those were the initial goals. And in order to get there, we basically have to hit a billion in revenue growing, let's say, like, 15% year over year. So that's the explicit stated goal right now. And so yeah, we're, like, racing towards a billion in revenue as quickly as we can.

LubaThat sounds great, but it's going to probably take multiple years, right?

MartyYeah, definitely.

LubaSo again, speaking of the human, you know, your personal side, do you think your sprinting is more sustainable because your capacity for sprinting is higher now? It is kind of like training for a marathon. You know, you train, you train, you train, and then you can run for a long time.

MartyI guess it must be part of that. Like, we definitely— because if I look back to when we did YC— did you do YC, by the way?

LubaNo.

MartyOkay. Yeah. When we did YC, it was definitely, like, very fast-paced, and I remember being so burnt out by the end of it. But now, yeah, maybe that was like training for it, because now I've just been doing it for like multiple years. And then also, actually, I'll say, before, I was in a relationship when I started the company, and for like the first two years. And then now I'm not. So it's like even more time—

LubaTo grind.

MartyYeah. Exactly. And so it's almost like— yeah, I have access to more time than I did before, and, like, more mental energy and more, like, focus that I can have. Which sounds like— for people who, like, listen to this, this might sound psychotic, but that's how it is. Yeah.

LubaYeah. I would have expected that when you were in a relationship, you could have had more capacity for grind, because, you know, you have the soft part of your life, you have someone to support you. Maybe you were, you know, not in the best relationship, because it was the opposite.

MartyIt was a really, really great relationship. I think it's hard. You know this. Like, I think it's really hard to date a founder, because, like, yeah, the time that you have is, like, very limited. And it's like, if you're trying to date someone, you probably want them to spend time with you. And if the person you're dating is a founder, and they are spending all of their time in the office, then, like, there's no time. So, like, you're not going to see them that often. And so I think that, yeah, it's really hard. A lot of people, actually, I think, really like the idea of dating a founder, but, like, the actual reality of it is terrible. Like, it really sucks.

LubaWhat do you think is the glamorization of dating a founder?

MartyI mean, it's like, a lot of people, of course, love the ambition, right? And they're like, "Oh, wow, they, like, raised a bunch of money. They, like, have a team. They're, like, building something really cool." But okay, the only reason you can do that is because you work so freaking hard. And so, like, that time has to come from somewhere. And in most cases, you're basically sacrificing relationship time for that. And I'd say, like, for me right now, it feels like the responsible thing to do is just, like, not date at all, and just, like, think about the company until it's, like, really just running on its own. And then I can take a step back. So, like, the $10 billion in 10 years— my hope is that we have an exec team soon-ish who is able to kind of, like, take over a lot of the grindy day-to-day, so that we can take a step back and not work.

LubaYeah. Not work at all.

MartyYeah. Not work at all, but, like, at least, like, have, like, moments where it's like, okay, I don't have to be deeply involved in everything. And so that transition is already starting to happen.

Like, company-wise, we're around like 55 people now, and we have now four leaders across the team. So we have— most relevant for me is, like, a head of sales, who now has, like, let's see, probably like 11 people under her. And she's, you know, now crushing that job, handling recruiting for it. And so I can, like, take a step back and be like, okay, I'm just a supportive role in that, for at least a moment.

On marketing, we're starting to build out that function. We have two people there, a third one joining next week. And then I'm actively now starting to look for a head of marketing to come in and help with that as well. We have a head of customer support that we internally promoted, head of customer success we internally promoted, and then a head of engineering as well. So, like, increasingly, a lot of, like, the grindy work, or the managing of, like, so many individual projects to, like, kind of higher-level goals, is starting to happen.

LubaOkay. You're hiring a bunch of people, and I assume that now these high-level people will take off some responsibility. Do you think that's actually going to be the case?

MartySo yeah, we'll see, role by role. I'll say, like, on the head of sales side, where I'm most involved— yeah, I mean, she is super— like, in the beginning, of course, we're both working together way more closely, and we do work super closely together, but she's now handling a lot of the, like, day-to-day, weekly operations. And now we're starting to see her do her first, like, sets of recruits as well, which is exciting, too. So yeah, the answer is yes. And if they're not, then they're probably not doing a good job.

LubaDo you feel like you trust people?

MartySo—

LubaHow's that arc been?

MartySo three of our four leaders so far have been internally promoted, so we had a really good sense of who they were beforehand. And my hiring philosophy is actually quite— or promotion philosophy is quite similar to the Airbnb model, where it's basically like, hey, you just have to start doing the work of the level above you, and then just show that during the performance review, right? It's like, okay, I'm already doing this work that is of this next level, like, just change my title. That's the, like, philosophy that I have. And yeah, that's worked well so far.

LubaOkay. So $10 billion in revenue in— $1 billion in 10 years, or 10. Yeah. What's the point?

MartyIt's all for fun.

LubaAre you having fun right now?

MartyYeah. Yeah. The thing is— and maybe, like, you can empathize with this— I think for a lot of people, you can't not do it. Like, I feel like I'm so—

LubaWhich part?

MartyI've, like, romanticized this idea of starting a company for so long, where you, like, cannot imagine—

LubaNot doing it.

Marty—not doing it. Like, you just have to. And, like, even when it's not going well, you're just like, you need to keep going. And, like, something in the back of your head is just telling you, like, you need to try again. Like, you need to keep going. And so, I mean, you saw this with me, like, through many pivots, and, like, back when we were both at Airbnb, it's like, man— first off, like, I was, like, itching to leave. I, like, really wanted to start something. And there were, like, two years after I left where, like, nothing was working. Like, it was just so brutal.

LubaOkay, I want to actually back it up a little bit. So you are of Lithuanian descent.

MartyYes.

LubaSo you grew up in San Diego. Your parents moved from Lithuania to the States.

MartyYeah.

LubaWere they entrepreneurial? Tell me a bit more about your background.

MartyYeah. So my dad was a Catholic priest.

LubaWhat? I did not know that.

MartySo, I don't know. Oh, it's— maybe spiritual is the right word. But he— yeah. No, he was actually, like, on the religious track.

LubaOkay. Which is super— how did that happen?

MartyIt's, like, kind of a long story, but he— yeah. I mean, both my parents grew up in Lithuania, which, for people who don't know where Lithuania is, it's like a small Eastern European country, 3 million people.

LubaYeah. I'm from Belarus, next to—

MartySo, yeah. So, neighbors. And yeah, both my parents grew up there, you know. All my family is, like, fully Lithuanian. And yeah, my dad was actually on the religious track. He had, like, studied at the Vatican.

LubaWow.

MartyYeah. Like, he was, like, very holy.

LubaWow.

MartyI guess that's the story. What's the story? So, I mean, he basically— it's interesting. Like, during the Soviet Union, which is, you know, what my family grew up in, one of the places you could be rebellious against Russia, who kind of, you know, of course ran everything, was through religion. And that really appealed to my dad, where it's like, hey, there can be another voice of truth that people are allowed to talk or to listen to. And so actually, religion was super, super important during the Soviet times. So, and then he also felt like it was a really great way to help people, and so that kind of appealed to him.

LubaSo he got on that track independent of his family.

MartyYes. His family was not— in fact, I mean, you can't have a family if you're—

LubaWow. Yeah. He pretty much was going against the grain.

MartyYes, definitely. His mom was like a teacher, and then his dad was not really in the picture. So— and then my mom, she was actually— so both are incredibly smart. And I'd say, like, my dad is more philosophical, because you have to be when you're thinking about religion and, like, deep thought. And then my mom is, you know— she was valedictorian at her school. Like, everyone in her town knew her. She was kind of like the very, like, charismatic type of individual, and very smart and hardworking. And then they met. They met basically after they both moved out of their hometowns. And yeah, I was not planned. And so—

LubaThey were also quite young.

MartyThey were both quite young. Yeah. And then I was not planned, and—

LubaAnd your dad at that time was still on the path to be a Catholic priest?

MartyHe was one already.

LubaOh, he was one already. Okay.

MartyAnd he wasn't— actually, like, the reason they decided to come to the US was there was effectively, like, a married priest conference that happens every year. And at the time, it was like a super, like, taboo thing. And so they went to this conference, and—

LubaYour mom, not religious, or she religious?

MartyShe had to— yeah. Like, more culturally, I'd say. It's because, like, hey, that's where people gather every Sunday, and it's almost like a community thing, rather than—

LubaYeah. Yeah. In Eastern Europe, it's very secular, but people say that they're religious for the community reasons.

MartyRight. Yeah. So yeah, more culturally. And then they both came to this conference in San Diego. And then my mom actually had studied English in school. And so they then decided, okay, let's go to San Diego. And they ended up staying. And so because that conference was in San Diego that year, they went there. And basically we were taken in by this, like, really, really great set of family friends who held on to us while my mom was still pregnant, and, you know, kind of showed us the ropes of the US. And they're still very close family friends.

LubaSo your dad was a Catholic priest?

MartyWas a Catholic priest. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, now he's— yeah, now he's not. It's kind of hard, I think, to be a married Catholic priest. It kind of goes against the rules, I think. So you're not supposed to have a family. Yeah.

LubaYeah. How has this whole situation impacted your upbringing? Do you feel like you got the bug to start a company, be entrepreneurial, be a self-starter from your family, or that was completely, completely unrelated?

MartySo one thing they instilled in me is— I guess this is probably just what people describe as, like, the immigrant mentality, but they came with nothing. And so I feel like my entire life, I saw them work really hard and, like, push really hard. And the way I describe it to people is it's like constant acceleration. So you're, like, trying to move faster, improve your station, you know, get a better job. And so kind of start with nothing, and then slowly, like, build up and grind your way up over time. And so: parents came, didn't have jobs, dad didn't speak English, you know, couldn't really do the same job that they were doing before.

And so my, like, default state of being that I'm comfortable in is constant acceleration. So, like, a way to describe this: imagine you're, like, coming up in an elevator, and when the elevator first starts moving, you feel that acceleration, you feel that push against your feet. And then once it, like, stabilizes in speed, you don't feel anything. And so for me, it feels natural to constantly feel that push. And so, like, I want to go faster and faster and faster. So constant acceleration really, like, feels like my default. And if I'm not, then it's a little uncomfortable.

LubaSo you said that in an elevator, it's accelerating, and then it's stable speed, and you can't really feel anything.

MartyExactly.

LubaWhat is that steady point for you? And are you worried about not feeling anything?

MartyWell, so the thing is, like, I think that's one of the reasons I needed to start a company. It felt like, hey, like, you know, a lot of people, when they graduate school, they're like, "Okay, I'm just going to go do the job and climb the ladder." And, like, that does not appeal to me. Like, I don't know how you felt at Airbnb. For me, I was, like, looking around myself, and I loved my team, but I did not want to trade places with them. Like, I didn't want to trade places with the senior software engineer on our team, or the, like, director of our org, or, like, the VP of engineering, or even a CTO, to be honest. So it's like, if I stay on this path and, like, grind my way up, is that even something I want? And the answer was no.

And so that just felt— I don't know, it felt like there was something that could be better. And at the same time, I knew about startups, and I knew some founders. And even the ones who weren't doing well, which was most of the ones I knew, I would rather trade places with them. And I don't know if you like the German philosopher Nietzsche, but he has this whole thing about, like, oh, you should use envy and jealousy as kind of like a—

LubaAs an accelerator for your own growth, or as a sign that this is something that you want.

MartyExactly. Yeah. Exactly. A sign that that's something that you want. So if it's like, okay, I'm looking at the, like, head of engineering at Airbnb, and I'm like, I wouldn't want to trade positions with them, but I'm looking at founders, and I'm like, I would trade positions with them, that's probably a good sign that, like, I should go do that and try that.

And so, you know, just tactically, for people who might be considering doing this, like, I literally had a Google Doc, and I wrote out best case, worst case if I go start a company. So I was like, best case: like, company works out, I love it, I make a ton of money and, like, never look back. Worst case: whatever I do fails miserably, like, I lose a bunch of money that I would have made otherwise, like, I become depressed or something. And then I, like, probably go get a job again at Airbnb or somewhere else. And, like, at minimum, even in the worst case, I'll, like, get the bug out of my system. I'll be like, okay, this whole startup thing, I tried it, it wasn't for me, I can move on.

LubaSo you were obviously pilled by startups, seeing a lot of people do it, and now, you know, so many people want to do a startup, and it's this glamorous thing. Do you think people over-glamorize it? But even if you do that, it's really important to try it for yourself and to understand. But then the question is, how long do you try until you decide to give up? And that's where I want to tap into your story, because you have tried for a few years before you hit on the train of Pylon. But yeah, what is your general perspective on what's going on in the industry now?

MartyYeah, there's definitely a lot of performative founders that, like, we've both met many, I think, right? And Robert, Advith— so my two co-founders and I— we are very honest about why we're building the company. And we've, like, thought about the reasons for why people build companies, right? So one of them can be, like, money, right? I think unless you're trying to be a billionaire, like, you should not start a startup for money. It's so hard to actually succeed. And, like, I don't think money is strong enough of a motivator for most people for them to, like, grind something out for, like, 10 years, and, like, just, like, the sacrifice that they have to make in everything. It's too hard. So I don't think money is worth it unless, like, you're going for, like, a billion-dollar, like, personal outcome. Then maybe it's like, okay, you have to do it. There aren't many other options. But I think generally, money is a bad reason.

I think passion is also a bad reason. And what I mean by that is, like, passion for, like, a problem or industry. So a lot of people will be like, "Oh, I'm super passionate about X industry or that industry." But it's like, are you so passionate about solving that problem that you experienced at work that, like, you are going to spend 10 years solving it? Like, there are some people who do that, and they're like, "I'm so passionate about the problem that the best medium for me to impact the problem is to start a company."

So my issue with that is, one, like, can you really be that— like, be honest with yourself. Like, are you so passionate about that idea that you're going to spend 10 years, like, grinding every day, sacrificing social stuff, like, sacrificing everything to go solve that problem? In my opinion, that's kind of fake, or that— I think. I don't know for sure. I'm sure there—

LubaHave you met people who are so passionate that they do it?

MartyI feel like no. I feel like the thing is, actually, when people describe to me, "Hey, I'm so passionate about this idea," I feel like I sense some fakeness with it, because, like, are you just saying that because that's what you think people need to hear, or, like, that's what you think an investor wants to hear, whatever? I don't think it's a good reason. And then also, the other thing is, if you're actually trying to build a business, actually being focused on a very specific problem might distract you from building a big business. And so for us, like, we're very focused on, like, the revenue piece, right? And the size of company. And that informs a lot of our decision-making, and also, like, what we worked on in the beginning. So it was really important to us that we had that clearly defined.

So money, I think, is a bad one. Passion for, like, an idea or space is a bad one. And then finally is, like, fun and adventure. And I think that's the one that Advith, Robert and I really have, where you can try to come up with so many, like, excuses of, like, why to do something, but fun and adventure actually are pretty consistent. And so if you're like, I'm just, like— I want to, Airbnb style, embrace the adventure, right? Like, I'm, like, that type of person who's, like, very novelty-seeking and, like, excited about, like, exploring and, like, building stuff. And that's just for fun.

And a lot of people— they're surprised when we say that, because it's so unusual. But it's true. I think for the three of us, we're very honest with ourselves that this is, like, a fun project. And as I described before, this is like a board game for us. So we're playing a board game. We know the win conditions for the game, and we're trying to win the game. And so that's it. It's really fun and adventure.

LubaThere's obviously a lot of different types of fun. How did you figure out— and you got, I think, really lucky, and I want to talk more about your co-founder relationship, too, but let's bookmark that for now. Like, for the three of you, the type of fun that you enjoy seems very, very similar. How did you all realize that this is how you had the most fun? Board games, you said.

MartyWell, so we think of the company like a board game, where you're collecting resources, you're, like, reallocating them, there's some, like, win conditions for the game. I guess for the three of us, you know, one thing we all feel, actually— and we brainstorm this type of idea all the time— is it's impossible for us to not do this, if that makes sense. Like, we—

LubaYeah. What does that mean?

MartyIt means there's, like, something in us that, like, we can't— we have to do this.

LubaBut there's so many other things you could have done.

MartyThe thing is, like, of all the ideas, or all the things you could do, like—

LubaWhat are the— yeah, for example?

MartyI don't know. Like, go be a lawyer or be a doctor. I don't know anything about those things. But, like, or be a software engineer or a product designer or something like that. For some reason, there's this, like, really strong, like, romanticized idea for us that building a company is really exciting and fun.

And part of it for me, personally, I think, is like, hey, like, you know, in high school, *The Social Network* came out, and I was like, "Oh, man, like, this guy just had a laptop, and he built, like, a huge company that changed the world, right? That's exciting." Or, like, watching an old Steve Jobs movie, you're like, "Wow, this person, like, really built something incredible from nothing." And so, yeah, maybe for me, there's, like, the zero-to-one excitement, and then also the fact that it can have such impact on so many people, and, like, lets you build this, like, living, breathing organism, which is the company.

LubaYeah. For me, it was around 12 years ago, when I was in school in Waterloo. I was living in this entrepreneurial residence, and they were very much encouraging people to start companies. And I was like, oh my God, one day I'll also be that type of person who starts a company. Obviously, you know, my story and motivation did not make me last as much as you guys are.

MartyI'm curious. Did you also, like, get motivated by movies and stuff like that, or no?

LubaYou know, I did, but not to the same extent. Which is— I think the part about being honest with yourself is very important, because I figured out it's very important for me to be honest with myself as well. And I think everyone has to always be reflecting and asking, what are the reasons that I'm doing the thing that I'm doing, whether it's a startup or something else? Are those reasons still true, or am I becoming performative with those reasons?

So coming back to movies, I don't think I had the same effect. I think some biographies and books, but I think there were other parts of those people's journeys that I found more exciting, and the founding in and of itself was motivating, but not to the same extent. So speaking of honesty with yourself, how do you reflect? How did you start getting on this journey of self-realization and self-prompting? Who maybe inspired you, or what tools?

MartyI think one thing that's been helpful is, between my co-founders and I, we are always very honest with each other, and we share ideas totally transparently with each other. So that, I think, allows us to get to the truth much faster. And we share ideas in a low-ego way as well. So we share ideas in a way where it's like, okay, we're able to kind of explore and discover together, like, what are we actually thinking or feeling? And so early on, we had to define kind of what we wanted to do for the company, and we actually aligned on: the reason we all want to do this is because we can't imagine doing anything else. It's fun.

LubaAnd you truly trusted that the type of fun that you all wanted to have was the same?

MartyYeah. And so there are actually, like, ways to explore this. So, like, one is, okay, what's the motivation? The why is fun. The what is build a $10 billion company in 10 years. And then the how is also incredibly important. The how for us was, like, the grindy, like, live in the office, like, that type— we had this idea in our head. We had already, like, heard of— we had the vision for, like, what type of company we wanted to build, and, like, how we wanted to build it. And so I think we could have worked on anything, to be honest, as long as it, like, was heading down the right path.

And so for us, it was just more important that we focus on something that leads to, like, the win conditions of the game, and then we build it in a way that, for us, is fun, which is, hey, like, sleep in our office on the ground, or, like, in conference rooms. And, like, that's just— I don't know, there's something about it. And it's almost weird, because people outside of the startup world might just not understand this at all. Like, they listen and they're like, "This is crazy. Who would ever want to sleep in an office? Like, that sounds miserable. Like, get a life." For us, that's so much more exciting than anything else we could come up with.

Like, it really is like sleeping— there's this, like, iconic photo that we posted on LinkedIn of Robert, my co-founder. Like, he has his, like, mattress on the ground in the living room of our second, like, place that we worked out of. And all of us, like, lived there. And I was in a conference room, Advith was in a conference room, and it was just so silly. It was, like, really so silly. So fun as well. So I think, yeah, the why of motivation for fun, the what being defined, and then the how were all things that we aligned on super early on, and have allowed us to, like, move really fast and make the right decisions.

LubaOkay. So this sounds incredibly lucky that you guys have aligned so much. As far as I remember, the backstory was, you were at Airbnb. You were, as you said, kind of, like, starting to get checked out, always wanted to start a company. You then left— we left around the same time— to the sea of exploration. You personally, I've seen you have explored two or three products. One was the Parkinson's device, and the second one was the call thing for old people, or something like that. Correct me if I'm saying this incorrectly. And then maybe there was a third one. But okay, tell me more about all those explorations. So you had this, like, I cannot not start a company, and then you go on to first find a first co-founder who was much older than you and had Parkinson's disease himself.

MartyYes. Yeah. So the first idea was— so basically, leaving Airbnb, I was exploring ideas with many people. And there were so many. Like, we all go through this, we can empathize, right? It's like you try so many ideas with varying amounts of intensity. And so even, like, before leaving Airbnb, I feel like I probably, while at Airbnb, had tried, like, 10 different things with, like, different levels of effort, of course. But at some point I was like, okay, I need enough time to go find—

LubaRight. I think there was someone on the payments team that you also worked with at some point.

MartyYeah, exactly. And actually, for the call idea. So, idea one. So basically, first co-founder, I ended up meeting through my mom, actually. And it was basically— she was like, "Hey, I know you want to start something. There's this, like, guy who started, like, a big biotech company before, which had gone public." And so, you know, I met with him, and he was describing how he had Parkinson's disease, and he wanted to build a product around helping manage the condition. So you can almost think of it like a blood glucose monitor for Parkinson's. So there's no way to track— exactly. You got the— nice. Oh, is that Oura?

LubaIt's Oura.

MartyOh, okay. Okay. Damn.

LubaI just got Oura. Yeah, it's very interesting. Oura, and I think Whoop, are all competing for the CGM market, too. So in the Oura, I saw that there was a tab called glucose, and clicked on that tab, and then you could order a CGM monitor. So I just got this, like, a week and a half ago.

MartyThat's crazy, because I remember when you got the Levels one.

LubaYeah. Yeah. Like five years ago. Good memory.

MartyThere we go. No, for sure. So we're trying to build some way to measure the condition, because there's no biomarker, which means, like, there's no way to, like, track it continuously, because it's all in the brain. And so basically, we built this, like, app for Apple Watches that could track tremor, which is one of the biggest symptoms of the condition. And so, anyways, basically, lots of reasons that didn't work out. I think, one, co-founder matching was not ideal. Like, it wasn't the same, like, how that I had imagined, that type of fun.

LubaYeah, the type of fun.

MartyLike, we weren't going to be able to live together. He's, like, you know, later in his career. And then also the passion thing. It felt good to talk about what I was doing, but it was a little performative, where I was like, oh, like, healthcare, like, is exciting, you're helping people, whatever. At the end of the day, like, it wasn't something I was truly— like, that was not going to drive me to keep going on it.

And frankly, passion is still, to an extent, important. I think for that type of idea, you probably want to be super passionate, because, like, the iteration speed in healthcare is so slow. And so in order to even, like, get to the next stage— and also, it's, like, not the best industry to work in. Like, you have to give yourself some sort of excuse of why to be there. And so I think passion is probably a good excuse early on for that.

The one thing I learned was, the co-founder I was working with was only really going to be a good co-founder for that idea. And so it kind of prevented us from, like, seeing that it wasn't going to work, and we kept trying it for longer than we should have. So we spent probably a year, me and this co-founder, working on this idea, which was too long. And then as we were starting to pivot, I kind of had this realization: okay, he's not going to be able to pivot with me, and I need to move on. So I decided to end things.

Then I was trying to, like, recruit one of my old co-workers from Airbnb, who was still there, like, staff engineer, really, really smart. We get along together really well. He had previous startup experience being, like, a founding engineer and then later CTO. And we start working on this, like, idea that came from the Parkinson's one, which is—

LubaI want to point out that the sun is rising, so it's now bright out.

MartyThis is really nice. It's also, like, you can't see this.

LubaIt's also very foggy. Yeah.

MartyYeah. It's so— you literally can't see. It almost feels like they're fake windows. Like, I can't see.

LubaI'm like, did the windows get frosted? But never mind. It's actually a beautiful view of the entire Bay.

MartyReally?

LubaYeah. You see the Golden Gate, the Bay Bridge.

MartyWait, I'm so— okay. Maybe it'll clear up.

LubaOkay. Well, maybe by the end. Okay. Yeah. But okay. So the Airbnb co-founder looks perfect on paper. You had fun with—

MartyYeah. And so we start working on this idea that we got at the end of the Parkinson's thing, where I was basically calling senior centers, and I was trying to recruit— this is, like, crazy.

LubaI literally remember when you were like, "I've got to be better at sales. I have to, you know, make these calls to—" I think I visited you in LA, and I stayed in your guys', like, extra bedroom.

MartyLike, yeah. I, at the time, was cold calling senior centers, and police stations, who needed the software that we ended up building.

LubaI actually remember having a conversation with you around that time, whether it was the call center or the Parkinson's idea, and asking you similar questions of, like, what is the motivator? And you were, I think, even telling me that even if I built some, like, crypto thing that I really don't care about— like, I just really want to build something of my own. And I think back then— I might be wrong— there was more of a money motivator, too. And perhaps that's changed.

MartyI think when you're making no money, it becomes, like, slightly more of a motivator. I think at that time, it was like, cash flow positive.

LubaYeah. I'm pretty sure you cared so much about cash flow.

MartyYeah. So—

LubaAnd, like, the call center idea could have been the cash flow idea.

MartyYeah. And so, okay. So, for context, like, yeah, basically, I was calling these senior centers to recruit people who had Parkinson's, so that we could, you know, get them to use our Apple Watch app, right? So that was the context. And one of these senior centers I called, like, at the end of the call, she's like, "Hey, by the way, do you guys build other software too? We're using this thing. It's super outdated, and, like, we're looking for something new." They literally just told us that, like, "Hey, the software exists that we'd love to use. Can you build something new?"

LubaAnd I think this is a really good tactical example of being open to ideas, to changing your idea, to listening to what your potential customers say.

MartyRight. And so it's so funny. So this was, like, Humboldt Senior Center. And, you know, they basically were like, "Yeah, we have this software that, like, checks up on seniors in our area." And it literally— just to give you guys a sense of what it does, you just put in the names of people and, like, when it should call them, and then they answer the phone, and it's like, "Hey, if you are okay, please press one." And so they, like, press one, and it checks you in. It's actually a really good service, because if you live alone and, like, you know, hey, you don't answer, then they'll send someone to check up on you. So it's a really cool service, actually, that people provide.

And they were using this, like, fax machine plugin thing. Like, it was, like, super old. And so they were at the point where it was like, hey, if there was a cloud version of this— like, Twilio was, like, incredible. It was like, wow, like, you could just do this and, like, not have to have a full phone machine there. That's crazy.

And so, yeah, I basically went to my buddy who was still at Airbnb, and I was like, "Look, I know you're at Airbnb, but, like, build this with me." And my hope was, of course, to, like, get the bug in him, so that he, like, wants to leave. And so, yeah, we build that, and we're, like, trying to close deals, and we get to probably, like, 50K in ARR. So, you know, like, surviving. And we could have gone further, but, one, my co-founder was not going to leave his current company, or leave Airbnb. And I kind of realized that, like, probably four or five months in. And then also, it just wasn't, like, a big enough idea. And so, yeah, both of those reasons kind of, like, pushed us to end it. And then I started exploring who to work with next and what to do next.

LubaOkay. So now this also gets interesting.

MartyYeah.

LubaBecause—

MartyBecause what?

LubaBecause you have tried working with Robert and Advith a few times, right?

MartyWell, kind of.

LubaSo you lived with one of them for a while.

MartyYeah, exactly. So then, yeah, I'm thinking, like, who do I want to work with next, and who's interested in startups? And Advith was one of the people I met during, like, the summer fellowship program, KP Fellows. And so we actually weren't, like, friends during that program, but we were in the same friend group. And so I thought he was this really silly guy. Actually, my ex, who I was dating, from that program as well, interned with him at Slack, and she described him as, like, kind of, like, he doesn't really care about anything. He just, like, shows up and has fun at work. And so, kind of, like, a silly attitude.

And then, so we didn't hang out that much. We knew of each other, probably had a couple conversations. But then after graduation— I wanted to live with two other KP Fellows. We're finding a place, and he messaged one of them and was like, "Oh, can I join your guys' living situation?" And so we end up saying yes. And then he ends up becoming, like, my best friend from that group. And we spend, like, almost every day talking. And it wasn't, like, work-related. It was just everything. Like, lots of curiosity about the world, and ideas, and, like, we made a book club, and, you know, all these things. And so it's mostly just, like, having fun. And so, okay, now fast forward—

LubaAnd at that point, did you guys share your desire, both for starting a company at some point and having that sort of fun that you've described, in the office?

MartyYeah. So I think that we did talk about startups, and, like, he was loosely exploring stuff. I remember, like, he was thinking about trying to become, like, a chief of staff for, like, some well-known tech founders. And there was this, like, bug for startups. But we never were really talking about it together, necessarily, or in any, like, great detail.

And then the pandemic hits. I start working on this first idea. And then a year later, a year and a half later, essentially, I, like, message him, and I'm like, "Yo—" And we're not living together during the pandemic. He went to Chicago. I was, like, in LA for a bit, San Diego. And I messaged him, and he's working with another guy, Robert, our now third co-founder. And so they're already working on ideas, and they've been, like, pivoting around for, like, a year, a year and a half. I'm like, "Hey, we should join forces." And they basically reject me, like, multiple times. And—

LubaWhy did they reject you?

MartySo they basically felt like we were all too similar. And it was like— they were looking at a logistics idea, for example, and they're like, "We need someone who, like, knows the logistics space, who can sell into it, like, build that side of the business, whereas we can be really good at product and engineering and build out that side." So they were looking for someone that they felt was more complementary. So they were like, no. And in fact, at one point, they had told me so directly, like, "No, we are going to work with this other specific person." So they, like, had decided this other specific person is the one.

LubaHow did you feel in that moment?

MartyOh, it felt— I mean, it felt really sad, because I was like, damn, I thought there was something there. Like, I really thought, like, they were the people I was going to work with.

LubaHow did you feel that?

MartyIt's just like, I think after working with two people where, like, the co-founder matching wasn't correct— so, first one, kind of, like, later in life. Second one also, like, slightly later. And, like, if he were younger and, like, didn't have a family yet, I actually think it would have been a great pairing, but he just has more responsibilities. And so it felt like the how of executing, where you're, like, living together and grinding and just having fun— like, he wasn't going to be able to do that. And so honestly, like, by the time I was courting Advith and Robert to work together, I was just like, I just want to work with people I really like, and, like, just in the same way. And, like, we'll figure it out.

LubaPaint the picture. Were you courting anyone else at that time, or did you just have such conviction about them?

MartySo there was one other person I was, like, seriously, like, so close to starting the process with. So actually, the timeline is, there's a Friday where, like, Advith and Robert are like, "Marty, no. We're going to go work with this specific other person. Sorry." And I'm like, "Okay, I need to come to terms with this. No means no, right?" I'm like, "I heard you the third time." So I'm like, "Okay, I can't waste any more time. I need to find someone else."

And so over the weekend, I kind of strategized, and I had an idea that I was working on. And so I actually had set up dinner with one of my roommates from college. And he was, yeah, a super, super smart guy. We actually, like, had kind of been testing some ideas together, not in, like, any official capacity, but we were exploring some crypto stuff, because crypto was big. And then that morning— so it's, yeah, Friday they reject me. Monday morning, or Sunday night, Advith and Robert are like, "Hey, you should, like, come co-work with us tomorrow morning." And I'm like, "Okay, sure."

LubaBecause they already rejected that other guy, the third guy?

MartyNo, they hadn't. So all I knew was that they were not going to work with me. And this is just for fun, right? Like, "Hey, you're in town, like, from LA. Like, come just, like, hang out." And so I show up, I sit down, and they're like, "Hey, Marty, like, I think we should work together. We thought about it, and we think we should work together." And I'm like, "What just happened?" Like, this is three days later, or four days. Yeah, three days later, you're telling me that you, like, had this, like, change. I was stunned. I was like, I've been trying for months, and then all of a sudden, this turns around.

They basically realized for themselves, while they're talking to this, like, business guy, they're like, okay, this guy's trying to screw us over on equity, probably isn't going to work as hard. And they were about to fall into the same trap that I did, where it's like, you pick someone based, like, too much on idea, not enough about, like, how you work together and the type of company you want to build together. So there was that misalignment. They started to feel it in negotiations for equity. And that's where they turned around and were like, "Okay, actually, like, maybe Marty is, like, someone we want to work with," and it would be, like, a good adventure, essentially.

LubaThis is kind of going into relationship psychology, but the fact that they didn't want you, and then they wanted you—

MartyYeah. Yeah. It made me feel—

LubaYeah. How did it make you feel?

MartyYeah. I mean, because, you know, I had mentally moved on. I feel like there's only so many times you can say no. And so I mentally had said, like, "Okay, I need to get over this. Like, I need to move on." Yeah. It's just like a breakup. It's like, you might want to get back with the other person, but, like, if they've moved on, like, you need to move on, too. Like, there's—

LubaBut, you know, as they say, it's when you stop thinking about your ex, that's when the ex texts you.

MartyExactly. That's exactly what happened. So I had moved on mentally. And so when they told me, I almost, like, didn't even know how to process it. I was like, "What are you talking about? You literally rejected me, like, three days ago."

LubaBut it didn't negatively affect the start of your relationship?

MartyNo. I mean, like, no, it didn't. I was just, like, surprised, and they explained it, and I'm like, okay, that makes sense. And yeah, I mean, it's the best outcome that could have happened, right? Because it's, like, the people I actually wanted to work with. Like, you know, I got over the fact that they rejected me so many times. And honestly, the moment we— then we basically sat together. We're like, okay, how can we try this out? How can we experiment, or make sure the working relationship works? And I was actually visiting from LA, and I ended up then staying on an air mattress in their, like, living room for three weeks as we were, like, testing out ideas.

LubaTesting out the stay in the living room and working together.

MartyExactly. And so, like, our first days working together, I was in their living room on an air mattress, and we're just, like, exploring ideas together. And you could tell, like, the way all of us, like, navigated through the world, and, like, for, like, simple things, like how scrappy we were and how we were with money. Like, we decided on a bus— like, on Muni, like, a public bus— who's going to be CEO, who's going to be CTO, who's going to be CPO.

LubaThat was one of my questions. How did you guys decide?

MartyWe were on a bus, and this was, like, probably like a day— it must have been like a day or two, or maybe same day— where we initially had this discussion. Robert and Advith didn't care who was what. And frankly, like, I cared the most.

LubaWhy did you care?

MartyI think for me— I don't know. I just, like, always imagined that I would fit kind of, like, the— I felt like the part about my mom that I mentioned a long time ago, like the charisma, I felt like I could embody that. And, like, when I look at, for example, Brian Chesky, CEO of Airbnb, like, that's one of the characteristics I really love about him. And it's the one that often is associated with the CEO. And so it's kind of silly, because that's not the right reason, but that was my association of, like, hey, someone who can be a really good storyteller for the company long-term. And I felt like I could do that very well. And so that was my preference. I think, like, is that the right reason? Not really.

But at the time, Robert and Advith felt like other roles were fine, and it didn't really matter. And frankly, like, even for the first, like, two years of the company, we didn't really tell anyone who was what. Like, if you went on our LinkedIns during that time, it would just say co-founder, and that's it. And all of us come from engineering backgrounds. We're actually quite similar. And I think we actually ended up choosing the right role. Each of us chose the right role. So I'm actually happy it worked out the way it did. But at the original, like, onset of that, there wasn't really a good reason for each of us to have the role that we had.

LubaOkay. So you guys— they were fine with the non-CEO roles for the first two years. It didn't matter. Did this ever come up, that, hey, others maybe wanted the CEO role now, but you already have it?

MartyNo, never.

LubaWow. Okay. So you just got hella lucky with your co-founders.

MartyI think one of the— so, one of our core values in the company is "happy grinding." And I'll say, like, part of what defines that in our heads is kind of, like, a low-ego, high-competency way of operating. And so, like, yeah, Robert and Advith don't care. And the thing is— I think in most relationships between co-founders, it's like, oh, one person's the CEO, and, like, they handle the business stuff, and then there's the CTO, and the CTO handles just engineering, and they, like, stay separate. Actually, the three of us are quite different. We all are very business-minded. We're all commercially minded. And you could probably drop us into any part of the business and we could go run it.

And so, yeah, we're just different. I think the three of us are all, like, very collaborative on all aspects of Pylon. And yes, we own different things now, because we have to specialize. But yeah, we make big decisions together. Everyone's very strategic. And yeah, there's never been, like, a power authority thing. It's always because we're aligned on, you know, why we're doing it, what we want to do, which is build this $10 billion company, and then, like, how we do it. Like, all of our arguments are really just debates around, okay, like, this strategy doesn't make sense, or it doesn't make sense because of X, Y, Z.

LubaI think every relationship is different, obviously, and has different dynamics. But if you were to look back and give advice to fellow founders who are looking for co-founders, how would you go about co-founder dating, picking someone, knowing what you know now?

MartyYeah, it's one of those— so I think, like, Michael Seibel, who left YC, had this, like, really great quote around, you probably already know your future co-founder.

LubaKind of like when you know your future husband or wife.

MartyYeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So it's like, they might already be someone you know and you trust, but for some reason, like, you hadn't thought about working with them before. And I actually do remember reading that, and—

LubaOh, I see. Okay. I misunderstood. I thought you meant, like, when you meet someone, you have this feeling of, could I work with them or not? But what you were saying is, you probably have already met them and worked with them or interacted with them.

MartyExactly. Which is— and that actually made me look back at people I knew. And so, like, Advith, for example, was someone I had lived with, but, like, never really worked on anything with. And so I did explore, hey, former co-workers. So, for example, the guy from Airbnb that I worked with on the call idea, he was someone I had worked with, right? And so I tried that. Then Advith was someone I had lived with, and so it was just, like, for fun, like, just as a friend. And so, yeah, in my case, I did already know at least one of my future co-founders. And then Robert, Advith knew very well from Caltech. And so—

LubaAnd you trusted Advith's opinion, and obviously then had a few weeks living there.

MartyYeah, exactly. Yeah. Robert and I, like, got along really quickly. The fact is, we're all actually quite similar people at our core. And once again, like, we're so— the why, the motivation, the what and the how, all three are, like, so aligned. And then we're slightly spiky in different areas. So, like, in the beginning, ways we saw this was, like, Robert, for example, was really good at design, and, like, none of us were. I was— turns out, like, I didn't know this, but I'm really good at marketing and sales, which I kind of thought I was. And then Advith was, you know, actually quite business-minded, and then, you know, really good at engineering, I'd say, like, much more than Robert and I. Yeah, we all shared kind of, like, a common set of similar values, and then we were all slightly spiky in different ways.

LubaWould you recommend going through any sort of co-founder dating exercises? You know, answering the 36 questions to fall in love or something like that? Or did you all figure it out through getting to know each other and working?

MartyYeah, I think we just started trying it. And it is interesting, because they had already started working together and developed a relationship first. And then I, you know, kind of joined the trio, and so it was, like, a non-standard thing. And the thing is, like, most people think— yeah. Basically, the journey to, like, actually find the right co-founders, work on the right thing, for me took, like, two years.

LubaYeah. And for them—

MartyAnd for them, they had already been working together for, like, a year and a half on many ideas. So they didn't switch— I guess they had tried to work with other co-founders, like the logistics people who ended up trying to, like, screw them on equity. So, like, they did try, but it was, like, very short moments, until then we all started working together collectively.

LubaI think it's also incredibly lucky that you guys all had such low ego, and especially given the situation that you were the third one coming in, and then you got the title of CEO. That, I think, in and of itself, is also quite unusual, because again, as you said, they didn't really care.

MartyYeah, they didn't care. I would be lying if I said I completely didn't care. Like, I cared at least a little bit. Yeah. But the thing that— and I've learned this from them more than anyone— is, like, they really embody the low-ego thing. Kind of the, like— when we debate things, it's always not personal. It's very much, like, we're debating ideas and strategy. And so, yeah, the working relationship is just so good, because we assume best intent. We're all aligned on the same actual mission and, like, where we want to go. And so, yeah, it's really worked out.

And, like, you could tell, like, the first days we started working together, it really felt like magic. It felt like we were, like, steel sharpening steel, like, debating ideas very heavily, like, very aligned on kind of where to go, the same, like, work ethic. So very clear from the start that we were going to make great co-founders.

LubaYeah, that sounds so incredible, and also so mature. The tenets that you just mentioned: the assume best intent, you debate ideas, it's not personal. Did that part come naturally, because you all have embodied it independently? Or did someone tell you that that's the way to build a co-founding relationship? Did you guys read books? Maybe hear that from YC partners?

MartyIt was totally natural. And I'd say Advith and Robert did that very well. And actually, the good news is, like, they had worked together in some capacity before. So at Caltech, for example, they were organizing hackathons together and going to puzzle hunts together, and they were just naturally that type of person. I'd say, like, I was a little more the odd one out, to be honest. I had, like, a little more ego. And, you know, I had grown up an only child, versus they had siblings. So I kind of had the, like— I don't know, I, like, needed to learn how to work better with people, to be honest.

And I actually feel super grateful that the three of us ended up working together. I learned a lot from them on, like, proper ways of operating with others, like, in this case, co-founders, because the low-ego thing they embody so well. They, like, really embody it well. And, you know, I've totally adopted that, and that's how we operate across the company now.

LubaThat's incredible. Very, very lucky. And also, I mean, props to you for being willing to learn.

MartyYeah. Yeah. And I'll say, like, now— you know, I've told Advith and Robert this— I actually now, surprisingly, care less about the CEO title. I think, like, it would be fine if I were not CEO. Like, one day we wake up and we're like, Advith needs to be CEO, or Robert needs to be CEO, I would actually trust them to do it, and they would do a good job. So I don't feel like I need to hold on to this. I really just want to build a big company, and that's it.

LubaTwo questions. One, have you adopted anything you've learned at Airbnb in the ways you operate the company? And two, kind of similar, is there anyone that you really look up to in terms of people who run companies, or also companies and how they're run?

MartyYeah. So, what did I— did you learn anything from Airbnb?

LubaI think there were certain things that you learn.

MartyDid you?

LubaWell, it's interesting, because I really thought that I wanted to start a company that felt as tight as Airbnb was when we— you were an intern there too, right? Like, it was just so fun, and you really felt like your co-workers were friends, and people were so smart and versatile. And I actually do think, as a complete third-party observer, that that is something that you have at Pylon.

And that was only true for, like, very early Airbnb days. I think when we were about to leave, it was a lot more bureaucratic, and people didn't really care as much, and it was a lot more corporate. But especially the 2015 time, when I was an intern first, it just felt so fun, and, like, you wanted to spend all your time with co-workers.

And then, as a result, when I started my company, I thought that I cared deeply about that sort of culture. But then, for myself, I actually realized that I don't necessarily need to spend all my time with co-workers. I don't have to be, like, super good friends with them. I just care about doing good work. But I do think that's slightly different for you, because you're all in an office, you have so much fun with your co-workers. And I think that is a big parallel to Airbnb, but you tell me whether that's—

MartyNo, that's completely true. Yeah, we have a lot of fun. So to give you an example— and fun is, again, like, the core motivator for us, and adventure. And so, for example— it's harder now, because we're just so busy— but, for example, two weeks ago, we had a team offsite where we flew everyone—

Luba$140,000 or something?

MartyYeah, we ended up spending, I think, like, 170.

LubaGood Business Insider article.

MartyYeah, exactly. No. So we spent a ton of money doing that. The year before, we had just, like, hit a million in ARR, which— it's so funny looking back. We've, like, come really— I can't share where we are today, but, like, really far from that. And so, you know, we had just, at the time, like, hit a million ARR, raised our Series A. We were, like, 10 people. And we asked the team, we're like, "Hey, we're going to do a team offsite, full team offsite, for a week. Where do you want to go?" And so we just asked the team, and we let them choose. And so we had a Slack poll, and Korea ended up being the selected option.

And so we flew the whole team to South Korea, Seoul, and were there for a whole week, still, like, 10-ish people. We rented out, like, one Airbnb that could fit everyone. And yeah, it was so much fun. And, like, yeah, you look back on that, and you're like, "Wow, like, what a great time." Team was really tight. Still is very tight. But obviously, it's growing so fast that now it's harder to maintain, like, that same type of closeness with everyone. But yeah, no, it was super, super fun.

LubaSo what did you learn from Airbnb?

MartyI learned that I didn't want to work at a big company.

LubaThat's a really important learning.

MartyYeah, I learned, like, what I don't want. I also did— so, this kind of goes into, like, the next question you had, which is, who's someone you admire? I mean, the only person— so when I ask myself the question, who would I trade places with? Brian Chesky. Yeah. Brian Chesky, or one of the founders of Airbnb, are the only people I would trade spots with, who are, like, wow. Like, they are really inspiring. Like, that story of, like, them selling the cereal boxes.

LubaIt's very similar to you guys' story, like, grinding it out, being really scrappy and creative, living in a place where you work.

MartyRight. No, exactly. So, like, that just feels so appealing and so exciting. That, like, zero-to-one phase is just, like— there's something so magical about it, where, when you, like, hear the story later of, like, oh, you were trying all these stupid things that, like, kind of sometimes work, sometimes don't— most of them don't, right? Like, looking back, those are, like, great memories, because, like, man, we had no idea what we were doing. Like, we were really just trying stuff and trying to see what would stick.

LubaSo then, for people who you right now admire, look up to— and I'm talking not just about, oh, this person somewhere far away, I don't have any interaction with them— but do you have actual close mentors that teach you things? Or how much value do you put on that?

MartyThat's a great question. I do not have close mentors right now. I'd say there are a lot of people who give advice on, like, small tactical things. But in general, like, my ideal advisor-mentor would probably be Parker Conrad, like, CEO of Rippling. We really—

LubaParker, if you're listening.

MartyYeah. No, please, I would love— please invest in Pylon. We'll give some allocation.

No, I think the way he approaches building Rippling, from just, like, a focus on building a great business, feels exactly the way we think about the company as well. And, like, the ambition is, like— we think that we are trying to build a similarly ambitious company, where you're trying to consolidate a bunch of products in a massive, massive market, eating away at, like, bigger incumbents. So it just feels like there are a lot of parallels between the two businesses. So yeah, we just really respect what he's done. And yeah, if we get to that same size— I think they're probably— they must be, like, a thousand people or something now. I think they, like, are now, like, worth 20-something billion in, like, what, six or seven years. So he, like— he did it. And so I would love to learn from him.

And then Brian Chesky, I'll say the thing about him— and you and I can probably agree on this— he's, like, the most charismatic founder I've ever listened to. So I love charisma. Yeah.

LubaAnd actually, an interesting part about him is, I think it also was learned through a lot of reps, for Brian, or—

MartyYeah. I mean, he definitely has a certain baseline level of charisma, but he's gotten so much better as a speaker and storyteller.

LubaSo when you were an intern, was he different, for example?

MartyNo, he was already— I mean, the company was already a few years old.

LubaBut I think even hearing his stories, it took a lot of conscientious effort to become an even better storyteller. So I think that charisma is innate, but also you can, you know, become a much more charismatic leader.

MartyYeah. No, he's great. What about you? Like, who is someone you look up to? Like, who's a founder that you really respect?

LubaI also really respect Brian Chesky. I think, you know, he's done an incredible job stepping into the position of the CEO. He's a great storyteller. He's very inspiring. Who is a founder— there's a few peers that I really respect, that are, like, easier to look up to, because they're kind of on the same track, as opposed to this figure that, you know, has already been there and done that. I really respect you. I think, you know, I've seen your journey. You've grinded it out. John Hu from Stan— you know Stan, the creators company?

MartyI don't, actually.

LubaYou should check out their LinkedIn. They're, like, very much LinkedIn-first, and it's Shopify for creators. And they started in a very competitive space, like the link-in-bio space, but positioned really well for a very specific customer, and then grew, and then just prioritized their customer so ruthlessly, and built a very similar culture where, you know, customer first, we have fun. The team is primarily in person. And I think they have two offices, in Toronto and in LA. And very much, like, that grind, I-have-to-do-my-best mentality. And yeah, I just think that he and his team are super, super inspiring. And we all started around the same time. So again, to the point of, this is someone that you can actually have a conversation with, as opposed to, like, Elon Musk types. Like, yeah, you admire them, but—

MartyI definitely admire— yeah, that guy. That guy. I mean, he's literally just, like, the best founder of our generation, right? Like, he literally is like— we're like, "Oh, we're building something in the cloud." And he's, like, building rocket ships, building cars, building brain devices. It's like, how does this man have any capacity to even run one of those companies?

It is really— like, I listened to, I think it was Marc Andreessen, talking about how Elon operates, and, like, how he is able to run, like, six companies at the same time. And they talked about how he will just, like, go into one of the companies for a day and basically ask the question, like, "What is the biggest problem the company's facing right now? I'm going to go solve it right now."

LubaOh, wow.

MartyAnd so he just has the authority to pull all the right people into a room and be like, "Okay, let's, like, figure out how to solve this right now, today." And so imagine, like, every week, you're going to each of the companies and solving their biggest problem—

LubaAnd you do that 52 times—

Marty—a year. So you've now solved the 52 biggest problems of the company. Which, actually, when you think about it that way, you're like, wow, that's— yeah, you are just, like, a one-man army, like, solving the biggest problems. And also, since you have the authority to do it, you can just, like, go and be like, "Whatever you're working on is not important compared to this thing. Like, fix this thing right now."

LubaAnd I think these iconic figures, they also have such resource gravity, because they've done so much work, they're so inspiring, they attract the best talent, and then, you know, you work with the best people. Whereas if you have great ideas, if you have the work ethic, but maybe you don't have as much charisma, for example, or you're not as good of a storyteller that can instill the idea that this is the most important thing for you, super talented person, to work on, you should come with me, then you're kind of left behind. So it's a constellation of all those things that is so important.

MartyRight.

LubaYeah. Okay. So what is the hardest thing that you guys have experienced so far, having moved so quickly? You know, seed, Series A, very quick, like, sub two years, two and a half years, you're already at Series B. Over 50 people.

MartyYeah.

LubaFirst time doing it.

MartyYeah. It's crazy. It really is crazy. So we started the year, I think, at, like, 20-ish people. We're now 55. So, like, almost tripled.

LubaThat's so fast.

MartyLike, it's actually funny. When we were doing, like, headcount planning for the year, we're like, "Okay, we're 20 people now. We'll probably be, like, 30-something by the end of the year." And, like, within, like, four months, we were way past that.

LubaSo that was unplanned.

MartyWell, it's like, you just don't know what you don't know, right? And so, for example, now that we're aggressively building out the sales team, it's like, okay, well, if we're trying to grow— let's just take a sample number, like 15% month over month, or 20% month over month— it's like, okay, well, who's going to bring in that pipeline? Who's going to close those deals? Who's going to support those customers? Who's going to help them get implemented? Like, every single function has to grow at the same rate, unless you can find some, like, great efficiency gains, which, of course, we're trying as well. But, you know, we're throwing people at the problem to start.

LubaSo back to the question: what's the hardest thing you had to experience, you personally and your co-founders, given this rapid growth?

MartyI think that— I mean, there's so many hard things. There's so many hard things. What's been the recent hard thing? I think we now have to understand how to manage different types of people. And so different people like to be communicated with differently, need different amounts of attention or resources to get their job done, even if they're, like, equally great. And so I think, like, understanding how to be managers is very new for us. And so, like, all three of us, Advith, Robert and I, definitely, yeah, hadn't managed people before. First time, kind of learning as we go. And so before, it was very much, hey, we're just almost, like, ICs or super ICs, and now kind of, like, assisting people in doing the work that they need to do. I think making people feel— basically enabling people, and, like, kind of that management aspect, is something net new for us that we need to figure out, too.

But I will say, like, every step of the process and the journey, there have been moments in time where I've felt like, man, I just, like, leveled up. Like, we went through, like, this big, like, culture shift on the sales team, for example. Our now head of sales, Mana, she brought up, like, "Hey, I think we need to change this thing, that thing." And they were, like, really hard things that she brought up, like, really difficult things. And basically, we had to, like, brainstorm together and rethink, okay, like, what is the correct path? And, you know, what should we change, if anything? How should we execute? And that was, like, a month or two of, like, pain.

Like, it really was this, like, metamorphosis of, okay, there was some status quo before, and we completely ripped it apart and just rebuilt that team in a way that's just way stronger now. And what's cool is, like, she initiated that, we were able to, you know, do that together, and now you can just see the team operating, like, so efficiently and so well. And so that process for me was definitely incredibly painful, because you're going from some sort of status quo to now, like, completely evolving your mindset about it and how you operate. So I remember, like, at the end of that period, I felt like I had changed. I felt like that was, like, such a painful, like, evolution that, yeah, I felt like, okay, I had never done something like that. I have now, and I can do more difficult things. And so now we're starting to do that across many other teams as well.

LubaWhat are you scared of right now?

MartySo when we asked YC, and specifically, like, our YC partner, what are the reasons companies typically fail, they say it's because the team stops grinding.

LubaWow.

MartyAnd, like, the thing for us: we're in a massive market. We have an incredible team. We have good momentum. So what could stop us? It really feels like ourselves. Like, there are going to be competitors all the time. There are going to be, like, different, like, economic things.

LubaAs they say, it's when the founders quit, the company dies.

MartyExactly. And so we need to not stop. We cannot stop. It has to be this, like, day one mentality, always. We have to keep moving fast. You cannot, like, take your foot off the gas for, like, any moment. We have to keep moving quickly. I think our biggest risk is slowing down.

LubaI'm tempted to ask something about the mental resilience of the speed, but I'm stopping myself slightly, because I think there are just some people who are— you know, we can talk about mental health and peak performance, but there are some people who are so driven by, let's say, I cannot stop and I just have to see it through, that that is such an insane motivator and driver that things like negative self-talk or stress don't really affect you to the same extent. Is that true? Or is there some sort of— you know, you give yourself, like, a pep talk when you're stressed out? Like, what's your mental game?

MartyThe thing is, I just realized that the only thing that will make me less stressed is doing the thing that's making me stressed out, right? Like, there's nothing— like, I can meditate all I want, but unless I fix the thing, I'm going to be stressed out. So it's like, if you're trying to go to bed and you're like, "I really need to, like, get this thing done," like, you might just need to go do it, and then you'll sleep better. Otherwise, you're just going to be laying there in bed. You're like, "Oh, like, I'm thinking about this thing that I need to go do." And, like, yes, there are cases— there are many cases where it's like, okay, you need to push that to tomorrow, or it's actually not the most important thing. So you can. But realistically, if something's stressing you out, it's probably stressing you out because you know you should be doing it, but you're not. So—

LubaYeah. And then you're beating yourself up, and then it becomes a self-fulfilling cycle.

MartyExactly. So I think for me, I've just learned that you've got to trust the stress and, like, let it guide you and tell you, like, what the right things are to focus on. And yeah, the only way to fix it is you just solve the actual problem, the underlying problem. Versus, like, you can meditate all you want, you can, like, take whatever, like, supplements you want, you take melatonin— it's not going to help.

LubaYeah. How are you thinking about life outside of work? Obviously, right now there is no life really outside of work, or, like, work is life. But, you know, things like relationships, seeing family, spending time on the simple things that people say matter.

MartyYeah. I mean, family always has to be important. We definitely try to sacrifice as little as we can on that front, between Advith, Robert and I. So, yeah, no, family is super important. I try to call them as much as I can. So yeah, no changes there. And, like, the only trips I do are to see family. When it comes to dating, I was dating someone for the first two and a half years of the company. Didn't work out. And there's just so little time that I can't imagine dating right now.

LubaDo you feel like you're missing out? Because, I mean, you guys are in your 20s. And actually, at some point during the interview, you mentioned that your Airbnb potential co-founder, or someone else, like, they had a family, so you guys were misaligned life-stage-wise. Do you think that this level of grind is only possible when you don't have as much responsibility? Because, as a counter, there are obviously examples of founders who are in their 40s and 50s, they have families, they're also grinding, but I guess slightly differently.

MartyYeah. Like, I think the advantage that people who are slightly older will have is they have leverage with their experience. So they might know the thing to do, right? Especially, let's say, like, hey, Pylon didn't work out, and now I'm going to start a second company, right? I would probably be more efficient in the things I do. And so my advantage would be, hey, I have the experience, and so I don't have to make all the same mistakes, and in some ways, I can move faster, right?

The ideal, I think, is you have both. So you have, like, some experience, and then you also have, like, the lack of responsibility. So I feel like there's probably this sweet spot of, like, late 20s, early 30s, where it's like, you might be right at the cusp, where you're about to have responsibility, but you don't yet. And so you can, like, really run, probably faster than anyone at that point. I think, yeah, if you have a family, you can definitely grind. It's just going to look different. Because, of course, someone who doesn't have one is going to have way more time. And so it's literally just an absolute numbers game, right? There's just more hours in the day that I can use that someone else can't.

LubaSwitching gears a bit to the product that you're building, because we actually pretty much did not talk about Pylon or what it does at all. But Pylon is the Zendesk killer, B2B customer support software. Like, do you find that what you're building is truly giving you and people around you meaning?

MartySo the way I think about us providing value to the world is, it's actually built into what we want to accomplish. So if people are paying us money— so first off, people hate spending money, generally. Like, they do not want to give you their money unless you're solving a real problem for them. And so if we're—

LubaUnless it's something status-oriented, which, obviously, you can say that it solves a problem, right?

MartySo, like, yeah, it solves their problem. They want it, right? You're providing value to them somehow. So I think, like, just logically, if we build a company that makes a billion dollars in revenue, that can directly be tied to the value that we're providing to all these companies, in this case. So yeah, I think we're providing a ton of value. Like, people do not want to give us their money unless we're solving a real problem for them.

And so, yeah, I feel super excited about it. It's, like, always super meaningful when someone, like, you know, signs an order for $100,000. We're like, "Wow, this company just decided that they're going to, like, trust us with this amount of money to, you know, run a huge, incredible part of their business." And the thing about Pylon is, Pylon is so important to people's companies, because we are customer-facing. So imagine, like, every time your customer interfaces with your company, it's going through Pylon. So, A, you open up a support ticket, or you're trying to, like, set up shared tasks with a customer— all of that is end-user facing. We touch our customers' customers. And so it's a really big deal for them to trust us with that responsibility.

And also, then, like, all this customer data is flowing through us. We have this opportunity to build all sorts of, like, signals of, like, hey, we can let our customers know this customer is at risk of churn, or this one, onboard them better, or this one, you can upsell them, because they seem to be really hot. So all that stuff— huge responsibility that people are giving us to run that. And so, yeah, I feel really good about the product and the value we actually provide to companies.

LubaTell me a bit more about your big dream. Like, what do you want your personal world in 10 years to look like? What do you want the tech world to look like? What do you want Pylon to be?

MartyTo be honest, I don't think about any of those, except for Pylon. I'm, like, really just focused on Pylon. There just isn't anything else. It's just Pylon. And I think you kind of have to have that mentality and focus, because we don't have time to think about other things. Like, it's so hard, and you get so little sleep, and there's so much to do, that you just don't have breathing room, to be honest.

Like, I mean, we talked about this when I came up. Like, we're working so hard that the Wall Street Journal wrote an article about how hard we're working. Like, that's the level of grind that we have, and it leaves very little room for anything else. And, like, it's so funny, because now, after that Wall Street Journal article, so many people are talking about, like, 996, and, oh my God—

LubaOh, did 996 come out of that article?

MartyYes, that whole trend, literally, from that. And after the Wall Street Journal article came out, I made this post. I was like, "Hardcore startup culture is back," right? Like, "I declare it." It was like, okay, the Wall Street Journal has now, like, given us the authority to be like, it's hardcore time.

LubaWhich wasn't the case for a while. I mean, during the whole cancel culture, et cetera, soft Silicon Valley culture, it was bad to talk about grinding.

MartyYeah. Isn't that crazy? Like, look at that— like, when we were at Airbnb, definitely that way. It was all about, like, kind of, like, niceness and, like, work-life balance. It's like, no one who wants to work like that would just start a company. Like, these two things are not aligned at all. I know, like, everyone wants it to be, like, kumbaya, anyone can do anything. That's not true.

LubaOkay. So let's say five years from now, you're still grinding as hard, probably harder, given what you said about acceleration. You're 28, you'll be 33. Do you think you'll be regretting anything?

MartyThe thing is, if I don't do this, I know I'll be sad.

LubaOkay. Fair. So it's regret minimization. I think Jeff Bezos talks a lot about regret minimization.

MartyExactly. So I know, when I was at Airbnb and not starting a company, I was, like, depressed about not starting. I was like, I know— it's like, you have that gut feeling.

LubaSo you would be sad about that much more than you would be sad about other things, like, let's say, having a relationship, or, like, having more time to experience the world, or building a close relationship with your friends. But I think your counterargument might be, I'm doing all of those things through Pylon. But for the relationship piece— like, you go on offsites, you build memories with your teammates.

MartyI think also I got lucky, in the sense that I got to travel a lot before Pylon. And so I've been to, like, 26 countries. I, like, had this study abroad. Yeah, I have, like, family in Lithuania, and so, you know, have seen a lot of different places. So I actually feel like there's, like, less value in just, like, going and seeing a place. Like, yes, I will enjoy it if I go, but it's not like— for example, this would be sad, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if I never went to Japan, right? I'd love to go to Japan.

LubaOffsite to Japan next year.

MartyBut the thing is, it's like, if I never go to Japan—

LubaYeah.

Marty—like, that's okay, to be honest. I actually don't feel like that's important. Like, it's fun, but it's not important compared to other things. Whereas, like, I know for me, just, like, as a— hey, did I optimize for, like, potential? And is there any unfulfilled potential that I have? That's much more important, is, like, fulfilling that potential and making sure that I, like, put my best foot forward and actually try to make it happen.

And, like, the, you know, terrible outcome is, like, we go for five years, stop grinding, and it all falls apart. Like, imagine the pain. Like, that would be true pain. You might go for five years and you're like, it didn't work out. Because, by the way, you know, I started working on startups— let's see, it's almost been five years, right? So I'm actually, like, five years into startups overall. Yeah. Seven years into, like, post-graduation. And so five years in, like, I'm tired. And, like, if we get to, like, year five of Pylon or year seven of Pylon, and then, like, things don't work out, man, I'm going to be so tired. Like, I don't even know what I'll do.

LubaSo that's the thing, like, because it's not guaranteed that it will work out. Obviously, you guys are grinding, so I'm super rooting for you. A lot of people are. But let's say five years from now you grind, you don't stop grinding, you still grind, but something else— just the fact that it's not working. You'd be crushed?

MartyYeah. Totally. I mean, for, let's say, like—

LubaBut would you be crushed about the fact that you didn't spend time on other things in your life, or just the fact that it didn't work out?

MartyJust the fact that it— because I think the relationship one is hard, because I am really excited about starting a family one day. And obviously, like, the life partner you choose is incredibly important. And so I think for me, the only thing there is, like, okay, you know, as you get older, there are probably fewer options. And so that is, like, the risk that I see there of, like, you know, if I want to have kids and I want to have a family and I want to invest into that, like, how do you make the timing work?

LubaAs a guy?

MartyMaybe. Yeah, we'll see. But the thing is— yeah. Yeah. I've heard that argument from people. I also think that, obviously, like— I mean, just objectively, I feel like I'm getting more valuable. Yeah. And so in some ways, maybe options can increase. But I also— you know, I think a lot of people lock in early, right?

LubaI also think that it's such a nuanced question. There's a lot of black-and-white advice, or black-and-white statements of, like, yeah, your value increases as you get older. There's also people, of course, who say, "Oh, man, you know, I was grinding for 10 years, and I regret so much the fact that I wasn't paying attention to anything else in my life." So it's so dependent on: have you developed social skills? Have you worked through, I don't know, like, past hurt, trauma? Have you dated anyone? Have you, like, gotten the reps in here and there? So it's so individual. And I think it's also so person-dependent, where, if you're not grinding— I mean, hearing everything that I've heard you say, and knowing you, I don't know what else you would be doing. Jeez. Like, you're wired to do this.

MartyExactly. The thing is, I think we're just wired differently.

LubaYeah.

MartyLike, I don't know how to turn it off. And, like, I actually learned recently, in talking to someone about this, that I actually even get annoyed when someone says, like, to me, "Hey, like, maybe you need balance." Like, that annoys me. I'm like, why are you saying that? Like, I don't want that. Like, that's not how I want to operate, and it would actively make me unhappy, or, like, less excited to spend time with that person, because I don't want balance. I want to be very intense and go really hard.

LubaI just have a couple of small questions to close it up. What's one belief about tech or life that you disagree with?

MartyI think one thing I disagree with in tech, and we talked about this before, is the motivations for starting a company. I think that fun and adventure are, like, the big reasons you should start. When it comes to life, it's probably also related to what we just said. For me, in life, you should have super high intensity, and you should focus on becoming, like, the absolute best version of yourself. And I think a lot of people, like, don't think that way, and they give up early.

And it's actually, for me, one of the most sad things, watching friends who I knew were super ambitious, like, drop off and stop. And, like, it feels like, what happened? Like, there was so much that you could do. Like, I could see the potential, and for some reason, they just stopped. And, like, that makes me so sad. And I know, like, people just— yeah, different priorities come up. But I really don't want— I see that, and I'm like, I don't want that to happen to me. I want to fulfill all the potential I can. So, yeah.

LubaWhat's something tiny that brought you joy this week?

MartyI think— so we actually just did— so, me and my co-founders get to spend less and less time together. And one of the things that brought me joy this week was, we went on the Andreessen podcast. The three of us got to sit down.

LubaOh, with Erik?

MartyIt was Jennifer Li.

LubaOkay. Nice.

MartyAnd, you know, it's so— like, there's a reason we work really well together. But during the day, even, like, when we get home to the apartment, we don't have that much time together, like, very little. Like, we have to, like, block off time on the calendar, and even that often gets, like, overridden. Like, right now, our founder syncs are, like, 8:00 p.m. on, like, Tuesday, Thursday, but often that doesn't happen. And so the thing that brought me joy was getting to spend time with Advith and Robert. And, like, even if it was a podcast environment, we still got to do our interactions, and you're just, like, reminded why you like these people so much. And so, yeah, that was a very positive moment.

LubaAwesome. Do you have a daily habit that's secretly bringing you joy?

MartyI am very big on the Bryan Johnson train.

LubaOh my God, you are. Holy— ... but I would have so many questions.

MartyYeah, you can come to the office and have a nutty pudding. So I, like, order the meals. So it doesn't bring me, like, a ton of joy, per se, but I'm like—

LubaYou secretly love it.

MartyI like that it's, like, one of those things where it's like, okay, I can get into a routine where I'm doing something that's helpful for me. And so my philosophy on this is, look, I'll eat, like, two-thirds, like, the Bryan Johnson meals and do all the supplements, and then the last meal of the day, I just do whatever I want. So, like, I fill myself up with the good stuff first, and then, you know, whatever happens for dinner, like, it's fine.

And so when I go to the office, I have my nutty pudding. I have some supplements. I have, like, the longevity mix. I'll take the olive oil shots before meals. For lunch, I'll, like, eat the Super Veggie. Yeah, it's cool that there's just, like, a default option. I can, like, essentially trade money for—

LubaRight. Less choices.

MartyYeah, less choices. Like, some defaults that will hopefully help me live longer, be healthier. So—

LubaI love it. Well, Marty, I know that we're over time, and you are super time-constrained. Thank you so much for coming. I feel like we could be talking for one or two more hours. This is so fun. Yeah. I love your mindset and mentality. I do think you're wired differently, so I love the fact that you get to do what you're doing. Yeah. Rooting for Pylon, always.

MartyYeah. Yeah. And thank you for having me on The Luba Show. I'm excited to be here, and hopefully get to be one of the first guests. So—

LubaYes. Thank you so much. Awesome. Yeah. Please. Cheers.