MichelleVolz

LubaToday I have a very exciting guest, Michelle Volz, who's a solo GP of Pax, a VC fund focused on American Dynamism. And in this conversation, we talk about a huge variety of things: Michelle's obsession with marathons, running ultras, her Guinness World Record for fastest combined time of running on seven continents, her motivations, her investment career, American Dynamism and so much more.Link

Michelle, I'm so excited to have you here.Link

MichelleThank you for having me.Link

LubaI want to get started with something that is maybe a well known fact, maybe not. You're a Guinness World Record holder for the fastest marathon time on seven continents. Did I get this right?Link

MichelleYes, the fastest aggregate time to run a marathon on all seven continents for women, which is a mouthful. Technically, I haven't completed all the paperwork to do it, but I do have the fastest times, which was like a 10 year long saga for me to get.Link

LubaThat is incredible and very random. I saw on X that you said that since you found out about this record, you were on a quest to get it done, to be the fastest runner on all seven continents. Tell me more about how you even found out about this.Link

MichelleYeah, so I ran cross country and track in college, and after I graduated, I moved to California, and I needed to do something to keep running, and I needed, like, a goal or a race to have on my calendar. And I read an article about this woman from Stanford who was the youngest person to run a marathon on all seven continents, and at that time, she was, like, a year older than me. And I was like, I probably don't have enough time to run on every continent to get that record. But then I saw on, like, the same page there was the fastest aggregate time. And at that time, the men's record, or the overall record, was also pretty attainable. Since then, a professional male runner went and absolutely destroyed the time.Link

But at that time, I was like, I'm going to get the overall record, which was definitely achievable for kind of my marathon times. But it turns out it's very expensive to go to each continent, and I was very poor when I first moved to California. It takes a lot of time to train. You have to plan for each race. So it ended up taking almost 10 years to do each continent.Link

LubaAnd so every single year, would you check if someone has beat the record? Because that's a really big commitment.Link

MichelleYes, I set up an alert on the web page to email me if there were any changes to the web page that had the record and the existing record holder. So I would get, like, random updates or random emails anytime they updated, like, the footer of the website, and I'd be like, oh no, did someone break the record? And then it never changed.Link

LubaBut why that goal specifically to keep you going and racing? Because you could have just been like, oh, you know, I just want to run the Boston Marathon, the New York Marathon, the San Francisco Marathon. Granted, those are the only three I know. I am not a runner, or maybe not yet. But why the Guinness World Record?Link

MichelleIt felt ambitious enough that it was a good goal to go after, where I'd actually have to work hard. I had done a couple marathons at the point that I saw the record and knew I could finish a marathon, but I was like, I need something more to add to the overall goal, and have something to be working towards over time. And then the international part was very fun. Like, it was like, oh, I get to travel and use this as an excuse to see different countries that maybe I wouldn't go to normally. So it was almost an adventurous thing. And there's, like, an ego thing of, maybe then I would have a Guinness World Record, which is so obscure and has so little competition, it's probably the only one that I'll ever be able to get.Link

LubaI think you gotta get on that paperwork, because, again, what if someone outruns the time? That would be really, really sad. You spend 10 years and then, you know... does it take long to file the paperwork?Link

MichelleIt does, and also, I was lazy about it. But worst case, if somebody beat the record, I would have to find my slowest marathon and then rerun that continent, which would be good. I'm hopeful somebody beats it so that I have another goal to train for and go after.Link

LubaWhere did such focus on the goal and pushing yourself come from? I have a hunch it's related to competitiveness. I had the pleasure and honor to be at your wedding, and your dad gave a very long speech describing all of your upbringing, and he did multiple times mention that you were really, really competitive by nature. Is that where that's coming from?Link

MichelleI think, yes, I am very competitive. But I also think there are two types of people. There are process oriented people and outcome oriented people. Process oriented people love the, like, routine. They love waking up every morning and getting their run in and, like, checking the box. And then outcome oriented people love training towards a specific goal, and will only do the actions if they push you further towards the actual goal.Link

I am a very outcome oriented person, so I need a goal to be working towards. Otherwise I won't run or I won't train. So I know that about myself, so that's part of the reason too. I was like, I need to keep signing up for a race. And part of the reason why this, like, seven continent thing was so nice is because I knew it was going to take a long time, so I'd have to do a lot of races, and then it forces me to train, which forces me to stay in shape and, like, be reasonably healthy for all of it. So it's more like me tricking myself into being competitive to stay fit.Link

LubaBut I assume process is still a really big part of it. You need to have a process to reach that outcome. Or can you go very much in sprints, where, you know, you train really hardcore for a week, and then you're just doing nothing for three weeks, and then you're like, okay, I have another race, so I have to binge train for that race? Because I assume in running, you have to stay really, really consistent to always reach that endurance or that capacity for running. And again, granted, I haven't really done any marathon training, but that is my assumption. Or, yeah, where does this process versus outcome orientation come in?Link

MichelleI think it's where you are motivated. I am not motivated by the process. I don't want to be waking up and having a routine every day, but I will do it because I know it's moving me towards a goal. Whereas I think some people like being like, I'm gonna wake up and get my run in and check that box, and it makes me feel very good. And I have my routine, and I need to stick to my routine. Or they, like, find inspiration in the process of, like, achieving the things every day. Whereas I only get inspired if I am working towards a goal, and my ego is on the line, and I know it's going to be embarrassing if I have a slow time, so I need to get up in the morning and run that training run, otherwise my goal is not going to be achieved later.Link

LubaI love this framework, because listening to you talk about it, I'm now realizing that I'm also outcome oriented. I'm not very process oriented. Being in a routine and, you know, just, like, checking the streak boxes, like the whole, oh, you know, I have a multiple day streak, and I have this thing that I do every day, just has never worked for me, no matter how many times I've tried. I've been singing opera for a really long time. And it's usually when I have a performance of sorts that I feel really motivated to train and to, you know, do the thing, even if the thing is everyday training.Link

But whenever I am in this process of, oh my God, I want to train every single day, why am I not doing it? I would have been so much better if I did it throughout all the years that I've been singing. But there is no outcome in sight. It's so hard for me to motivate myself to do it, and then I feel so much guilt, because I'm like, well, didn't I tell myself that this is important? Why is it so hard to do this thing and check off the box? So, yeah, totally get that.Link

MichelleTotally get it. And sometimes I think people can be a little bit of both. And I know, like, Ali sometimes is very obsessed with his streaks, but will set a goal to be like, I need to hit 100.Link

LubaVery process oriented.Link

MichelleYeah. He loves the process.Link

LubaYeah, he really does love the process. And I'm like, wow, we're so different in that way.Link

MichelleYeah. No, I think he's my quintessential example of loves the process. Needs to have a routine every day, and will set goals and competitions. And he's very competitive, but he finds joy in the process side of it almost more than the outcome side. Whereas I am antagonized by the process, but will do it so that I can have a very good end goal.Link

LubaSo tell me more about the process of training for these continental marathons. Do you have to have a really fast time, or is the combined aggregate time actually pretty reasonable? I've heard that sub three hours for a marathon is, like, a really impressive time. Is that true?Link

MichelleIt depends on, you know, impressive to whom? Is it a professional runner versus an amateur runner? Is it a man or a woman? In general, yes, it's very impressive. Very fast. Under three hours is about a 6:52 minute mile average for 26.2 miles. So very good, very fast. Professional male runners are a little bit over two hours. It's like the best time. Professional women runners are maybe between 2:10 and 2:15, is sort of where the current world record is. So under three is, like, not that impressive for them, but for me, very good. For the record, the total amount of women who have run a marathon on all seven continents, at least in a documented way, is in the, like, low hundreds, like maybe three or 400.Link

LubaAnd when did it start being documented?Link

MichelleProbably the first Antarctica marathon, which I think was only created so that people could become seven continent marathoners.Link

LubaWhich was around, like, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 10 years ago?Link

MichelleI'm not sure. Probably 20 years ago is what I would guess, maybe 10 to 20 years ago. That's a good point. I should look that up. And it's expensive, and a small number of people do it every year. And so the pool of competition for somebody that's run on all seven continents, and mostly run on Antarctica, and also has tried to do them quickly, is actually very small. Typically, the seven continent marathon challenge is, like, a bucket list item that people do when they're retired. And so I would say the average age of people that I've run with on each continent is actually pretty old. And so, like, a young person who wants to spend the time and money to do each continent and train is a very small pool, which is the only reason I could get that record.Link

LubaDid you like the fact that it was such a unique record? Like, how many people of your age sign up for that?Link

MichelleTotally, it's a moat that there's so few people doing it, which hopefully will mean I can keep it for a while. Although, like, records are made to be broken. It's very fun to have people also go after it and then spur me to hopefully run faster.Link

LubaOkay, so what's the process like to train? Are you constantly training? Are you constantly running?Link

MichelleThe problem is, I've now done so many marathons, I've probably done about 30 marathons, that my body is used to it enough where I know I can gut out a marathon with, like, okay training. Usually what you do is you work backwards for, like, six to 12 weeks. You try to hit a 20 mile long run or so, you know, two to three weeks before the race, and then you taper down. And so you kind of work backwards from that, where you're increasing your long run every week from wherever your starting point is.Link

But I've now done some marathons with, like, two weeks of training, where I haven't really been running, and then I'll sign up, and then just cram a couple long runs in, be in a lot of pain, and then just do a marathon. They're very painful, they're not fun, but I know I can do it. Which is bad for my brain, because that means that I'm less motivated to go back to the process of training, and I need a worse goal, or, like, a harder goal.Link

And so that is why I ended up doing a 100 kilometer race as my first ultra marathon, which I now want to do many more of. But for 100 kilometers, which is about 62 miles, I knew that I couldn't just, like, gut it out, and couldn't wake up one day and run. So I had to actually train and spend a lot of weekends doing very long runs and long hikes. And that race was very transformational. Like, I think you have to be a little bit crazy. It was in Zion National Park in Utah.Link

LubaHow many years ago?Link

MichelleThis was in 2018, so seven years ago now. And I ended up winning the whole race for women.Link

LubaWow.Link

MichelleIt was my first ultra marathon. And after I finished, I passed out. Had to go to the medical tent. They had to put four IV bags in me.Link

LubaOh my God.Link

MichelleI have never felt so close to death. And I have a video of me after the race, where someone asked me, would you ever do another one? And my eyes are, like, half closed. I'm so out of it, and I'm like, never again. That was the worst thing I've ever done. And then you forget about the pain, and you heal, and then you only think about the good times. And now I'm like, when's my next race? I need to sign up for another one. I put off ultra marathons to finish the continent challenge. But now I'm searching for my next goal.Link

LubaDamn. So what is the driver for running? So it sounds like your body can run the marathon at any given point of time, really, because you're so used to them, and it is, however, really painful. Ultra sounds terrible. Do you love running? Like, do you love it when you're actually on a run?Link

MichelleI do love it when I'm on a run. I just watched the *F1* movie with Brad Pitt, and in it, he said... I mean, obviously it's a fake movie, but he said there's something very magical about the moment where everything falls away and you're totally locked in and you're totally in the zone, and just on the course, running or driving. For me, there's a moment, especially in trail running, more so than road racing, where you get in a zone and you kind of are in this meditative state, just flowing, and that is this, like, magical feeling. And you have to be fairly, like, in shape, or at least, I have to be in shape to hit that feeling. But when it happens, it's magical and electric. And I only ever get that feeling in races, because that's when I'm working hard and going fast and there's adrenaline. So I do think I chase that high.Link

But I also think anyone that does long distance races, whether it's running or Ironman or other crazy endurance sports, you have to really enjoy type two fun, and you have to love pain. And I actually think many founders or people in tech feel the same way. There's a huge overlap between ultra marathon runners or trail runners and founders, because you have to want to sign up for pain and find enjoyment through that pain somehow. And I think there's something about the accomplishment for me. I don't know exactly what drives it, but it's like a need to do the hardest thing and prove to myself that I can do it.Link

LubaWhen did you discover that you loved pain?Link

MichelleI don't know. I think when I was young... I started running fairly competitively when I was 12. And my mom ran in college, actually for the same coach that I ended up running for in college, and my older brother ran in college, so we were a big running family. So my parents kind of threw me into a lot of races when I was a kid. I was a less willing participant, but then found out that I was pretty good at it. I was very small, so I was very light, easy to run a long way. And then once I tasted some of the success, I was like, I need to keep running to get better and win races. And then I think that just cascaded over time.Link

LubaDo you think one can learn how to love pain if they weren't put through this type of upbringing when they were a kid? Because it sounds like you were thrown into a lot of races, and you discovered it pretty young, and you discovered pushing yourself pretty young. Is this something that one can do when they're an adult?Link

MichelleI think a little bit of yes. I believe that everyone can learn new things and train themselves to think in new ways, but I do think there's, like, an innate drive, or a group of people that seek pain more than others. Even so, my husband is a Marine, and now I know a lot of Marines, and I would say the Marines are, of all of the services in the military, the most overrepresented in tech and startups and as founders. And I think it's because the Marines attract the people that like the pain the most in the military.Link

And my husband says, when he joined the Marines and was looking at the different options, the Marines were the hardest one. It was, like, going to be the hardest challenge, and one of the branches that has, like, the least amount of resources. You have to work extra hard and be scrappy. And I think it attracts those people that then go on to want to work in tech or startups after they leave the Marines, and have that same attitude of, like, I'm gonna go find the hardest thing to do, I'm gonna work on the important mission, and I'm gonna probably be in pain, but that will be the fun part.Link

LubaFrom the people that you've met, yourself included, do you see that people can endure, slash, like that pain if there is no outcome, slash, ego competition in sight? Or does competition, and, you know, getting the shiny medal or comparing yourself to someone, have to be a part of it?Link

MichelleThat's a really good question. I think that there are some people that don't need the external glory, but need the internal glory. And actually, probably in the Marines, that is very common, that nobody wants the external glory. They just want to have the outcome. And probably with certain founders, the outcome of building a successful company or product is the main driver, and delivering for their customers, versus the flashy fundraising rounds or flashy TechCrunch...Link

LubaPerformative founding.Link

MichelleYes. And, like, I would say I'm more attracted to those founders in any case. Like, if they are driven by the mission and outcome versus the hype and fluff, that is probably a better source of energy.Link

LubaSo for founders, what's the signal? What is your framework to determine, does the founder love pain? Do they do it for the right reasons? Because obviously, I'm sure there are signals you can pick up on that are more innate, but you could technically train yourself to say the right things.Link

MichelleAnd that's a really good point. I think you have to develop a bullshit meter in general if you're in venture capital. So even if somebody was trained to say the things, you have to sort of be able to sniff it out. Though I'm sure no one is perfect on that front. But I think past history is the main indicator of what your future trajectory will be. And if people have sought out things where maybe they have had to endure pain... it doesn't have to be ultra marathons. There are many different ways to put yourself in painful, ambitious situations. But I would say a history of that is usually a good leading indicator, and that can start from a very young age. It doesn't have to... it can start after you, you know, begin your career. But there are a lot of signs of, like, people opting into the hard, gnarly stuff.Link

LubaWhat's your mental game and prep for these gruesome things? Or, you know, what's your mental talk? Do you innately just have to be a really positive person that constantly pushes themselves? Or do you also have moments of, you know, I don't want to do this anymore, I don't want to get up and train for this marathon, or I don't want to run another ultra? What techniques or ways of keeping yourself sane during this process do you use and recommend?Link

MichelleYeah, I neg myself a lot. I don't respond well to the positive reinforcement. I'm very good with negative reinforcement.Link

LubaOh, interesting.Link

MichelleSo I have to tell myself...Link

LubaI'm actually the opposite. I'm bad with negative reinforcement. As soon as I start getting into a negative self talk loop, I am ready to give up immediately.Link

MichelleThat's so fascinating. I have to tell myself, like, don't be a little bitch, all the time. And if I am too nice to myself, I think then I am like, well, it's okay if you don't do it, that's, like, better for you. But if I'm like, you are tough, you can do this. Don't be a little bitch. Get through it. You're gonna be so embarrassed if you fail. Everyone's gonna laugh at you.Link

LubaSo it's very externally driven, in a way.Link

MichelleA little bit externally driven. I think the knowledge that if I sign up for a race, that my time will be public, even though nobody cares, nobody's gonna look at it, literally nobody cares. But the fact that it will be public, I'm like, I need to show up and do well. And even so, during the ultra marathon, I went through a lot of cycles of, I should probably stop. I need to give up. This is so stupid. I am so tired. Why did I sign up for this? Oh, nobody cares.Link

And then there's some level of, like, intrinsic, like, I want to finish this for me. But also, people flew out to watch me. I've told a lot of people about it. I don't want to, you know, have to go back to all these people and say, actually, I gave up. Because that was the biggest embarrassment for me, telling people that I gave up and couldn't do the thing that I set out to do. And maybe that's, like, the deep-rooted driver and insecurity of, like, I don't want to be seen as somebody that ever gives up on anything. Even if I set a crazy goal that was ambitious, I need to achieve it. But I don't know where everyone gets their motivation from. I think it can be different for different people.Link

LubaYeah, this is an interesting topic, because I think right now, in general culture, there is this detachment from ego. That *Ego Is the Enemy*. Ego is bad. You should not be driven and motivated by external factors. Being motivated by how other people see you, and by, you know, what people are gonna say, is gonna potentially make you unhappy in the long term. Because there's so many people who, you know, follow a path because they want to get accolades from a certain number of people, whether it's their family or their friends or the society at large. And then one moment they wake up and they're like, well, but who is me? You know, what do I actually want? Why was I driven by these external factors? Why was I driven by ego?Link

And it sounds like for you, you very much embrace the fact that, yeah, you know, you care about the fact that people might think, oh, Michelle, you know, she signs up for these goals and she's not even true to herself. So where do you think that balance between ego and intrinsic motivation lies? And I guess, bringing it back to founders, how much ego should be present in someone who's a founder?Link

MichelleYeah, I used to tell people that if I ever wrote a book, I would call it *High Ego, Low Discipline: Michelle's Way to Train for Hard Things*.Link

LubaThat's a great title.Link

MichelleAnd I use the fact that I care about what people will think of me if I don't complete something, or don't finish it, or don't do well. Even though, again, nobody cares, and nobody is really following anything as closely as you yourself are following the things related to you. But I know myself, and I know I have to trick myself sometimes. So I say, you know, it'd be so embarrassing to have to go tell people that I failed or that I gave up. And so I think it works for different people in different ways. Not everybody has to be driven like that.Link

But I think for founders, you know, there is some ego on the line, because you go out and you tell people, I'm starting this company, I'm fixing this problem. And it gets even more compounded when you have customers and you have employees, and they're relying on you, and you're telling investors you're doing this thing, and they give you money. And now you have all of these stakeholders that are looking to you to determine, are you going to do what you said you're going to do? Are you going to push through and continue to build this thing? And whether ego is part of it, or whether fixing the problem and focusing on the mission is really part of it, I do think there has to be some drive and some forces kind of helping you along. Because it's very hard to start a company, and very painful, and you go through so many ups and downs. There has to be something motivating you to keep going, even when the going is tough.Link

LubaI'm almost tempted to say that, oh, you know, if you are so driven by just whatever the ego wants, then maybe one day you would wake up being like, okay, why was I doing all these ultra marathons and running so much? That didn't actually make me happy, and I should have been spending my time on something else. However, with this logic, then you would have pursued whatever your first career probably was. But actually, you had a pretty windy path into investing, which makes me hold back on my statement around, like, oh, you know, are you doing ultra marathons, etc., for someone else or for you? So I'm sure there is a part of it where you yourself love running, as you said, and, like, catching that high.Link

So on this point of career, you know, now you're a solo GP at your own fund. You've kind of stumbled into investing, from what I gathered. But tell me more about how you discovered investing.Link

MichelleYeah, my path is very windy, and I actually give a lot of advice to people early in their career to not overly focus on a specific long term career path. Have a North Star, but be willing to change it. Because I moved to California just to work in tech. I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do.Link

LubaWhat did you study in college?Link

MichelleI made up my own major in college. I originally started in biomedical engineering because I wanted to invent the next pacemaker. Medtronic... I grew up in Minnesota. Medtronic was a big company. They invented the pacemaker, and that was sort of their claim to fame. I wanted to be an inventor.Link

LubaWhere did that desire come from?Link

MichelleI don't know. When I was young, I always was tinkering on small inventions, and would always submit things to the... you know, we had, like, invention fairs. I forget what they were called. And I would have the stupidest little hacked together products. Like, one example was, my parents would take me grocery shopping with them, and they'd always buy a Starbucks coffee, but they'd have to hold it and grocery shop. And I was like, there should just be a cup holder on the cart. And I, like, took a koozie and, like, velcroed it to the cart and brought it with them. And then people would ask about it, and it was, like, so silly.Link

LubaAnd that was your invention?Link

MichelleThat was my invention. I called it the Beverage Buddy.Link

LubaThat's really great marketing.Link

MichelleI was, like, nine years old, and my dad was like, this is so cute. And so I think I always just had random ideas of things that I thought should exist. They were all very simple, but I loved creating new things.Link

And then I got to college, and I hated all of the biomedical engineering classes. Everyone wanted to be a doctor. I did not want to be a doctor. I don't know why I didn't love those classes. I think I was also tired all the time because I was running in college, so it was a lot to manage. And I then took a couple business classes, and was like, oh, like, I'm gonna go invent products and start a business. And I really still loved, like, biology and healthcare. So I ended up doing this program where you got to write a long thesis on a specific topic and use that to create your own major around that thesis. And my thesis was, there needed to be more entrepreneurship in healthcare.Link

And I had all these different, like, invention ideas and all these different process ideas for healthcare. I didn't know much about anything. Looking back, I feel like I would have so many changes to everything I wrote, because I just was so naive. But I was like, it feels like there could be more improvements in the healthcare system. I've never done anything with that. I spent a summer in California, fell in love with California, packed up my car, and moved to California after I graduated, and never did anything in healthcare ever again.Link

LubaWere you okay with giving up on healthcare? So that whole ego of, I signed up for this, and now I'm gonna just give up on this biomedical career and my invention dreams, why did that not strike then?Link

MichelleThat's so interesting. I've never thought about it until now. And I think it was because it wasn't something I really intrinsically wanted. I think I thought it sounded good, and thought it was a very cool and interesting path, but I didn't care about it that much. And as I was researching more about the healthcare ecosystem, I was like, this is very broken, and I don't even know what could fix it, and I don't know enough about anything to be the one to fix it.Link

LubaThere was some reflection outside of just the ego of, I need to be seen a certain way. You're very connected to what you actually care about, what you want. I recognize that.Link

MichelleYeah, and I think maybe the other thing is that wasn't a big part of my identity. Whereas I think running became such a big part of my identity, and I was running for so long, and I was seen as a runner. And so the failure on the running side would be much more meaningful, because that was a part of me. Whereas the failure on the healthcare side, nobody even saw me as a healthcare person. I think four people in the entire world read my thesis, and hopefully it's in the trash now. And so that wasn't as tied to me as a person.Link

LubaOkay, so you moved to California. You were like, biomed, not my thing.Link

MichelleYeah, moved to California and got very lucky, ended up working at Palantir. And part of me had always wanted to be in the CIA as I explored many different potential careers.Link

LubaWhat did you do at Palantir?Link

MichelleI was on the product operations team for all the engineering leads on the government product, Gotham.Link

LubaOh, cool. You know, when I was in college, Palantir was my dream software engineering internship, around, like, 2015, I guess. And I had all this outline in my head of how I'm going to get to California, go to Palantir. And then I was an immigrant in Canada, so I was an international student on a visa, and all of those things were really top of mind. So I knew that Palantir had an office in Ottawa, and I was studying chemical engineering at the time, and then just, like, taught myself how to code. But Palantir was in Ottawa, so I was like, oh, and then, you know, I'm going to get a full time offer in Ottawa, and they'll sponsor my permanent residency in Canada. I had all this plan outlined.Link

And then I went through all of those interviews for that internship, and at the very last round, they were like, oh, you know, because you're not studying CS, we feel like you need more mentorship than other kids would. So I didn't get that job, and it was soul crushing, because I wanted it so badly. But in retrospect, I actually, like, got a much better opportunity, and it all worked out how it should have been, or, like, it all worked out well. But, yeah, Palantir was, like, a dream job.Link

MichelleIt was at that time. So this was end of 2012. It was, like, the hottest...Link

LubaIt was really hard. And speaking of, you know, ego and how you're being seen, it was so hard to get, at least, like, the software engineering job.Link

MichelleTotally.Link

LubaIt's, like, one of the hardest interviews. And I was like, oh my God, if I get it, I'll be so cool.Link

MichelleThey did a really good job of the prestige of it all, and they had a very, very high bar. The fact that you made it as far in the interview process is phenomenal, because they could cut you at any time if you weren't good. So if they kept you on for a long time, that means that everyone was saying yes. But they had such a crazy interview process. And I was not on the technical side, so it was a totally different process, still very long, but not the same level of competitive as the software engineering jobs. When I started, the rate of getting a job offer from Palantir was one or 2% of those interviewed.Link

LubaDamn.Link

MichelleFor a software engineer. So it was this crazy bar, very hard to get a job. And I think part of that prestige is what drove some of the best engineers to go join Palantir. Because if you were top of your class at one of the top schools in CS, which is mainly where they hired from, like, that was such a badge of approval if you got through Palantir.Link

LubaYeah, for sure. Even though people actually had no idea what Palantir did. I remember all of us who were interviewing were like, we don't know, but the bar is really high. They do something with the government. It sounds kind of secretive and interesting. And they didn't really talk much about what they were doing, either, but it was all just driven through how hard it was to get in, and how grueling their interview process was, and also how much they paid, because we would hear from other interns that it was a really great job offer. And, you know, sometimes interns would get to travel a lot, which I'm sure full time employees did. And it was interesting how they created that aura of prestige.Link

MichelleTotally. And they were very okay with spending a lot of time on recruiting and saying no to the majority of people. And even if everyone got yeses all the way up, there was, like, a final boss of, you'd have a founder interview with one of the founders, and they would say no to, I think, like, half of the people that made it through every other yes. And they were fine with just being very intentional about hiring, which is part of the reason why their culture today spins out, I think, so many phenomenal...Link

LubaYeah, founders. Yeah, especially the forward deployed engineer track.Link

MichelleTotally, yeah.Link

LubaYeah. I remember I was, you know, sitting at this university beer pub crying over my rejection from Palantir. And then, actually, that same evening, I got an intern offer from Airbnb, and that was the track that I pursued, and that was really fun, again, in retrospect. But yeah, Palantir is dope, and was dope back then. But back to your story. So you got a job at Palantir, and then what happened?Link

MichelleYeah, so I worked at Palantir for about two years, and didn't know how good Palantir was. It was my first tech job, and so I assumed every company in Silicon Valley was the same as Palantir. And at the time, Palantir was going through very normal growing pains. Lots of teams were constantly changing and turning over and moving around. And I was like, this is so chaotic, I'm going to go join a smaller company that has less chaos. Which shows you how little I knew about companies and startups.Link

LubaI think you should give yourself more credit. You were just right out of school. And yeah, obviously your first job creates a certain bar.Link

MichelleTotally. Well, also, I think I had no, like, knowledge of tech or Silicon Valley, or even really companies. Like, Palantir was my first proper job. Everything I had done before that was mostly working at a running shoe store, which was my high school and college job. And so I just had a lot of naive assumptions. Even when I first got my Palantir offer, I responded to the recruiter in two minutes, being like, sounds good, like, accept. And I just didn't know that you negotiate offers. Like, nobody told me that. I assumed if you got an offer, that was the offer.Link

And one of the first projects I worked on, once I got hired, was helping to streamline the recruiting process for software engineers because of the poor, you know, success rate. They're like, we're wasting a lot of time. We need to fix things. And then, obviously, behind the scenes, like, you expect a negotiation, like every recruiter. You know, you make an offer, and then, you know, there's some dance around, like, what about more stock options or less, you know, salary, or vice versa. And that's a very normal process. I just didn't even know that existed.Link

And so there were just so many things that I was naive about, which I think in part drives why I like to help people find jobs now, and help navigate the different processes behind either hiring or recruiting or picking the right company, because I had no one helping me. But I ended up leaving Palantir to join a different startup, which was much smaller, and then I worked at a couple other small companies, all somewhat less notable than Palantir.Link

LubaWere they still in the gov tech space, or was it all over the place?Link

MichelleAll over the place. Well, I worked in cybersecurity, and eventually that company ended up working with the government, but I worked mostly on the commercial side, and it was great. They let me, you know, hire people and work with customers, which was what I wanted. But I think I learned that it was a different company than Palantir, different stage, different product, different people, and all, like, doing very interesting things. But I was like, oh, there was something very special about the type of people that end up working at Palantir.Link

One founder friend of mine from Palantir described it in a way where he's like, everyone at Palantir is, like, the type of person that does all the work on a group project in school. And if you leave Palantir and go join another company, you realize that there are some people that coast off of other people's work, and that's not the norm. Palantir was a very special place. And so now I actually think I have found this niche in helping Palantir people specifically. I would say Palantir people that left Palantir, worked at a different place, and now want to work with more Palantir people again, but not at Palantir, at a new startup that's sort of building a new, similar culture to Palantir. Because they, like me, learned, oh, there was something extra magical about the culture of Palantir that is not the norm.Link

LubaWhy didn't you go back to Palantir once you had these realizations?Link

MichelleI didn't even really consider that as a path. And actually now there is a higher frequency of, we call them boomerangs, that have been going back to Palantir. And I think at the time, earlier in my career, maybe that was just less normal. I mean, maybe I should have thought about it, but I was sort of on my own journey to figure out what I wanted to do and what I was good at. I worked in a bunch of different roles, and then ended up joining the founding team of a real estate tech startup, where I got to lead the product side and, like, the customer facing side. We were very early. We went through lots of roller coasters, learned a ton of things about startups and all of the ups and downs. That company ended up pivoting, which is then when I was like, maybe I go to business school.Link

LubaWell, to take a pause here, what were you feeling during those years? You know, you basically hopped around different startups, different industries. Were you like, oh, you know, I'm learning new stuff, I'm figuring out what I want to be doing? Or were you feeling like you really wanted to find the thing that you really love, but you weren't sure what it was?Link

MichelleThat's a good question. I think part of me was, I wanted to find my thing, and I didn't know exactly what that was.Link

LubaSo you didn't have an exact North Star then?Link

MichelleI didn't really have a North Star. I think I ultimately wanted to be doing something that I felt was very important, where I had, like, an outsized impact on the company or organization or team that I was on, and where I felt very, like, meaningful to those people.Link

LubaBut you didn't really know what the criteria for importance was, right?Link

MichelleI had no idea. And I think I was, like, Goldilocks, trying on things and being like, nope, that's not right either. And in hindsight, it made my resume look very strange. But I actually think investing is all a, like, pattern recognition and network and understanding of how different things work game. And the fact that I have all these different company experiences, and saw different stages of companies, different types of teams, different roles, different people, actually has been very helpful on the investing side. But it's not something that, at any point on that journey, I thought about.Link

LubaWhy did you stay in tech all those years? Have you considered trying out something outside of tech? Did the thought of, okay, maybe this is just not my thing, where I can find the thing... or not really?Link

MichelleNo, I always wanted to be in tech. It was the most exciting thing, and where the future was being built. And I fell in love with California because of the energy, and Silicon Valley because of the innovation. And I think the need to create something ambitious that pushes society forward. And I couldn't imagine anything else.Link

I would say the evolution I've had of late was understanding that tech doesn't just mean software. And I think in, like, the 2010s in Silicon Valley, tech was software. It was software companies only. There were other companies doing maybe some hardware, maybe some deep tech, but they were much less talked about, much less romanticized. Like, software was eating the world. And I think now people are realizing that the intersection of tech and the physical world is actually one of the most, like, interesting and lucrative sectors to look at or build in right now.Link

LubaYeah, for sure, which will bring us to what you're working on with American Dynamism. But coming back to your track. So you went to business school. You were like, okay, maybe business school is gonna give me the answers.Link

MichelleYeah, I went to business school as a lost person.Link

LubaLike, were you actually feeling lost? Or were you...Link

MichelleTotally lost, totally. I didn't know what I wanted to do. After I left the real estate tech company, I was very burnt out and didn't want to join another startup, but wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I was thinking about starting a company, but didn't have anything I wanted to start, and realized I only wanted to start something to start something, which is the worst way to start a company.Link

LubaHow did you realize that? What was that journey of tapping into your motivator for starting?Link

MichelleI think I had no shortage of ideas, but no single thing that I felt so passionate about that I wanted to work on for the next 10 or 20 years. And I was meeting a lot of founders, because I was figuring out if I wanted to join a company or do some contracting work, and other people just had so much more conviction in the thing they were building. Even if it was early and they didn't know exactly the direction it was going to go, they wanted to fix a certain problem or had a really good idea. And I never had that. And I was like, I think I'm romanticizing the founder journey without having the passion that will pull me through all the hard times.Link

LubaDo you think it's the mission, though, that has to drive the founders? Because I recently had this interesting conversation with a friend who's crushing it with his B2B SaaS startup, and he has a belief that the motivator of being passionate about a problem is not good enough, and it's the motivator of loving the game and loving how the game is played that is much more important. And it also gives you fluidity in jumping spaces if you have to. Because, you know, oftentimes you would start with an idea, and maybe it's not it, but you're so attached to it, and then it's, like, hard to kind of detach yourself and zoom out and make a decision to move on to something else. So his point was that having fun in how hard it is, and kind of back to your point about loving pain, is the most important thing.Link

Whereas my personal opinion is, having gone through the founder journey, it's somewhere in the middle, where you gotta love the game and you also gotta have excitement about the space that you're working on. Otherwise, I don't know what your motivator for the space is. So I'm curious for you, because you did have the loving the pain piece, but it sounds like you didn't find the mission piece. And now you're also on the investor side. I'm sure you have different ways for how you look for what is the motivation for a founder. What do you think is the ultimate motivator that makes sense?Link

MichelleI think there's no one motivator. I think everyone has their own reasons for pushing themselves to do different things. In the same way some people are process people versus outcome people, some people are, I need to win the game, and some people are, I need to solve this problem. And both can work, and both can create huge companies. And sometimes I think founders need a little bit of each category, where you need to really want to solve the problem, but also want to win the game of creating a successful enterprise and successful company. Because sometimes, like, you might be able to solve the problem, but you are not building a venture backable company. And sometimes you might be able to build a big business that doesn't solve the problem, but that might be enough, because you've created a huge business, and maybe you make a lot of money, and then use that to start a different thing that solves the problem.Link

So there's many different paths. I think it's hard to put a blanket statement on things, even though I know venture capitalists love to put very opinionated statements out about the only right way to do things. But the reality is, anytime I've ever made a rule, or seen my old colleagues in venture make a rule, the very next founder we meet is the person that is the exception to the rule, and we then need to invest in that person.Link

LubaYeah, that's totally true, that it's about recognizing that rules should and can be broken, and then convincing yourself that maybe your framework is not correct. So for you personally, the game was not enough of a motivator. You were like, I only want to be a founder because it sounds good. And then you went back to the drawing board, which led you to business school.Link

MichelleYeah, yeah, exactly. And I applied to business school as sort of a, maybe I'll go to business school, or maybe I'll find something else I want to do. Got into MIT, and then COVID hit, and I was like, well, it seems like business school is the right choice. Otherwise, I will be trying to figure out things in the midst of a global pandemic that everyone else is trying to figure out as well. So I went to MIT in 2020, and when I got there, I wanted to get back into national security.Link

I had been following the Anduril team. A lot of people from Palantir had joined Anduril that I knew well, and I felt like there was this bubbling of national security interest that I wanted to explore again. And I ended up meeting some veterans that wanted to start a defense tech club. And they all knew very little about tech, but knew a lot about defense. And I was like, I'll be the tech person to help you start this club. So we started our defense tech club at MIT, which is now, I think, one of the most exciting clubs there.Link

LubaOh, wow, that's awesome.Link

MichelleIt's grown a ton. And then I started doing this work with the Defense Innovation Unit, or DIU, with a bunch of different people across the Boston area from different schools, and then really started leaning into that as the area I wanted to focus on. I thought I was going to start a company still, and was meeting some people who also wanted to start companies, but I ended up just wanting to give a lot of people advice, particularly those who had, you know, not come from a Silicon Valley background or a tech background, that were trying to get into this space. I was like, oh, no, no, no. That's not how you do it. Like, you won't be able to raise venture capital that way. You should talk to these people, or you should think about this framing. And I realized that I enjoyed that side of things a lot.Link

I mean, I had no money. And then I ended up meeting this woman who was starting a Palantir alumni angel syndicate. So I did some work with her, meeting founders and hearing pitches and figuring out if we wanted to do...Link

LubaHer name was not Luba, was it?Link

MichelleIt was also Luba.Link

LubaYeah. Actually, someone recently, a former Palantir employee who's a friend in New York, randomly sends me this text maybe a month and a half ago or two months ago, like, completely out of the blue: hey, can I call you tomorrow for some fundraising advice? And her name is also Luba, yeah. And then I'm like, okay, like, sure. You know, sometimes I get asked that question, but it was just so out of the blue. But I was like, okay, you know, I'll just roll with it. So I find a time with him. So I continue this text thread as if, you know, we're scheduling a time. And then the next day he calls me, and I'm like, hey, Sinclair. And there is definitely a pause. And then, like, this isn't going... And then he was like, oh my God. You know, I was supposed to text the different Luba, this Palantir angel investment syndicate Luba. So that's really funny, yeah. So I heard about this Luba, but never met her, and sometimes I guess cosplay as her.Link

MichelleThat's so funny. What a small world. But I was working with other Luba, imposter Luba, and...Link

LubaI'm the imposter one when it comes to this Palantir syndicate.Link

MichelleThat's so funny. And I ended up then actually just meeting a lot of different venture capitalists and talking to them about Palantir alumni and defense tech and gov tech, which I also really liked, even though it was very hard to justify an investment. And also as part of, like, a venture capital club in business school. And so that gave me an excuse to reach out to a lot of VCs, and everyone kept saying, there is no money in defense tech. That's not a category. No one will ever invest in it. LPs don't even allow it. We would never hire somebody in that category or sector. And I was like, it really feels like that's the most interesting, at least most interesting to me. And I wasn't, like, seeking a venture capital job just to invest. I was like, I just kind of want to learn more about this space, so we'll see what happens.Link

And I had been following Katherine Boyle for a while. She was at General Catalyst at the time.Link

LubaAnd she was already working on defense tech at that time at GC?Link

MichelleShe had done the Anduril investment at GC, and she had actually put out a big gov tech thesis, which she doesn't talk about as much anymore, but I was following that, and was like, I need to meet her one day. Then she announced she was joining Andreessen Horowitz, and they were starting an American Dynamism team. And I felt like that thesis, or that description, finally matched up with what I was excited about, which was essentially people working on the hardest, most interesting things at the intersection of tech and national security.Link

And I was like, I need to meet Katherine at some point. And I made a list of all the people that knew Katherine that I knew, and basically went on this long, months-long campaign to build up my network around both Katherine and David, the other general partner on the American Dynamism team, and then slowly just kind of incepted them to hear my name all the time, from every founder they talked to, or everyone sort of in the ecosystem. And in the meantime, I was also putting together this defense and dual use thesis, and getting feedback from other venture capitalists that were mostly telling me it was stupid. But I was like, I think there's something here.Link

LubaAnd how did you know that the inception campaign was the move, versus just, you know, cold emailing them?Link

MichelleI don't know. I honestly think it's because for a long time, my resume looked so weird, and it made it hard for anyone to choose me for a specific role. And I was like, but if other people endorse me and say I'm good, then that hopefully will get people across the line to maybe ignore all the jumps in my resume. And I was like, I know that some of these very, very great people that, like, knew me from working very hard for them, or working with people that they knew well, and being very good at whatever I was doing, would say, like, great things about me, and that would help.Link

But really, also, I was like, I'm gonna put all my eggs in that basket, and I'll be totally fine if it fails. Like, that was the one time in my life where I was like, I will have no ego if I don't get this job. And I will tell everyone I know that I'm trying to get this job, in case they can help me in some way. And I think it was a huge revelation for me, where I was like, I can ask for help, and that help will actually help me get the job, and I can tell people about it, and there won't be shame if I don't get the job, because it was a very ambitious thing in the first place.Link

And then I got the job offer. And I had a few other options of actual companies to join, of friends that started companies that I would have been also very excited to go to. But I was like, you know what? I'm going to try investing for two years and see if I like it. I will learn a ton. I might miss operating, but I can always go back to operating. But I need to try investing at least for a little bit to see if I like it. And turns out, I think it is the perfect blend of things for my interest level and background and understanding of the networks and people. So I can't imagine doing anything else.Link

LubaHow did American Dynamism come to life? So for me, personally, I heard about Anduril a couple of years ago, so much later, obviously, than the company started. And there's been such a huge push for nationalism and building for the US. And, you know, winning the race with China, and all of it is really exciting, and I think it's great that it's getting so much attention now. But it's definitely a recent phenomenon, and I have a hypothesis for why that's the case, why now is the time. But I'm sure it started somewhere. What was the start? Was it Katherine Boyle with the gov tech thesis? It was probably her plus a bunch of other things. Why is it getting so much attention now, finally?Link

MichelleYeah, I think that there are a bunch of factors. One is, in some ways, Palantir paved the way of taking a bunch of people with this Silicon Valley ethos and attitude and pointing them at the government, which historically didn't work as much with the private sector, and certainly not as much with the private tech sector.Link

LubaBut Palantir, at the same time, also had a really bad rep for that too, especially at the end of 2020, I guess, in the time before, the previous administration. Because there were so many rumors about Palantir doing bad things with the government and working on military operations, and it was actually the opposite of what it is right now. So, yeah, what has changed?Link

MichelleYeah. So, 100% correct. So Palantir was paving the way, mostly through brute force, and banging their heads against the wall for a very long time. It took many years for them to get their first government contract. They had a totally mixed reputation in many different branches of government. Often their end users really, really loved Palantir, but there were a lot of, like, bureaucratic nightmares that Palantir had to go through to learn how the acquisitions process worked, to learn how decisions got made, and to learn the different incentives of big existing primes or internal government teams. So there were just a lot of mistakes in the early days.Link

But what that did was teach a generation of people who never thought about working for government all of the things not to do, and then some of the things to do when building for government. And it also gave them access to a lot of the different problems that Palantir might not have been fixing but still existed. Which is why Anduril started. It was a lot of people from Palantir, and Palmer Luckey, who had obviously built Oculus and understood hardware, realizing that Palantir was doing a lot of phenomenal things on the software side for the government, but government knows how to buy hardware, and did not always have the best hardware, and somebody should fix that side of things.Link

At the same time, SpaceX was also, you know, building SpaceX and building rockets. And that took a whole generation of people who maybe were working in hardware or new hardware, but didn't have the same speed and momentum and ambition at any normal manufacturing company, and so trained this whole generation of people that were able to be creative about how to build a very complex, very successful rocket, and now space, you know, conglomerate.Link

And what we're seeing today is all of that talent that was painfully trained over, you know, a decade plus, now starting new companies, taking those lessons learned and shortening the timeline of their first government contracts, or their first prototype, or their first manufacturing facility. And that is what I think is causing a lot of the momentum in the space, where there are finally founders that understand the problems, know how to build things for them, and can move a lot more quickly, on almost the, like, more traditional venture capital timeline, to have what looks like a software company arc. Where, historically, nobody liked hardware, nobody liked government companies, nobody liked deep tech, because the timelines would be too long. And so I think, like, talent is one of the biggest components of the American Dynamism movement. And then there's all sorts of geopolitical things that I think also are pushing the cultural side of it.Link

LubaWere there any moments between, I don't know, like, 2018 and 2023 where you were doubting your interest in defense tech and, like, national security and American Dynamism, what it is now? Because obviously, you know, the times were different. It wasn't as sexy. People were, like, working for the government, uncool. How did you stay convinced and based, I guess?Link

MichelleNo, that's so interesting. I would say, like, I think it ended up being a timing thing more than anything, where I started exploring it more in 2020, and then I ended up taking a lot of classes in business school. I even took a class with the late Ash Carter at the Harvard Kennedy School. And during that class, Russia invaded Ukraine. And so all of these things started happening across the world that were making this more and more important. And so I think there was some level of momentum, external momentum, where I was like, this is interesting. And it just kept getting more and more interesting. And then I talked to more and more people who were also excited about it, and that list kept growing. And so I think it was almost just a momentum game, where I was like, this is interesting, and it kept getting more interesting.Link

LubaYeah, it's an interesting time where a lot of things are changing. I recently read Alex Karp's *The Technological Republic*, and he talks about all the different reasons for why national interest has been kind of completely shafted in the last, whatever, few decades, and kind of blaming Silicon Valley and the short term reward industry, that it's much easier and more exciting to make a bunch of money now versus making these really long term bets.Link

I mean, given that we are in that culture still very much, what is changing? Why are people more willing to take long term bets? You were just talking about, obviously, all these different timing things that are happening, but still, like, there is a whole generation of people who were raised on, military, defense, building for the US is not cool. So where are these people coming from that are now thinking that it is actually cool, and they're willing to make the commitment to build something for the very long term, versus, I don't know, building, not, nothing against software that makes money very quickly, but building one of the easier products?Link

MichelleYeah, I think that there has been a cultural shift towards people wanting to work on hard, important things that they can see the impact of. And I think defense is one of the most obvious things, where you can build something and see it out in the wild doing something impactful. Especially if you're starting to feel unsafe, or you feel like the world is on shaky ground. You want to feel protected, and you want to feel like you are contributing towards almost this, like, protection of our country, or this kind of surge of patriotism. And so I think there's some level of, like, almost self interest. It's like, no one else is going to do this. Someone needs to build this, otherwise we might no longer be a huge, powerful superpower. I'm not that worried. Like, I think the American spirit will continue to innovate so that we continue to stay ahead. But it takes people doing that. And I think there's, like, a wake up call of, like, wait, no one is coming to save this. Someone has to.Link

And then I think there's just some level of, like, watching the success of companies like Anduril, or even across, like, American Dynamism. It doesn't always have to be just, like, pure defense. I think, like, Flock Safety is a very good example. Like, that company was not cool for a long time. Flock Safety is a sort of, like, state and local company that builds software for police forces to help fight crime. And so they will help police officers, like, catch runaway cars, or catch, you know, crime rings in different cities.Link

They are buying a bunch of interesting companies. One of my companies, Aerodome, which does drone as first responder, was bought by Flock Safety. So now Flock cameras, which are in a lot of cities, can pair with drones, and then upon a 911 call, a drone can get dispatched, find the person, track the person, and then police officers can react accordingly. Sometimes people think that's a surveillance state, very scary, but it actually is, like, preventing a lot of crime. And even in San Francisco, the city, I think, has turned around in a lot of ways, because the city has started to embrace, like, we can find ways to pair technology and law enforcement in a way that actually makes the overall citizens happy. And I think if you have the right people building these companies, you avoid the very, like, scary surveillance state, and you find people who actually care about, like, safer cities.Link

LubaIs American Dynamism, and the innovation that happens in it, inherently, in the current times, a right wing movement?Link

MichelleThat's a good question. I actually think Anduril is also a very good example of this, where Brian Schimpf is very publicly a Democrat, and will talk about that a lot and donate to Democrats. Palmer Luckey, very publicly Republican. And they coexist very well, work very well together. I wish more people would, like, be very happy to work across the aisle. I think right now, we're in a very dire situation where it's so combative on each side that nobody can have a constructive conversation anymore, or actually think about, like, an issue by issue specific opinion. It's, like, us versus them in many cases.Link

I think, though, in the American Dynamism universe, most of the companies that are building hard, important new technology are building it in a very bipartisan way, or for bipartisan things. There's a lot of energy companies that fit into the American Dynamism spectrum. There's, like, defense companies. All of these companies are getting budgets from both administrations. A lot of things in the Biden administration laid the foundation for some of the new energy companies that are being built today, or the manufacturing companies. And then things in the Trump administration are sometimes pouring gasoline on those programs to accelerate them. Sometimes they'll cut different programs. But I would say, in general, the move to use private sector companies has been a, like, many, many year long bipartisan initiative. And, like, politics right now, I think, hypes up certain aspects of it, but most founders are just like, I just want to build hard, important things, and care less about the politics.Link

LubaThat's awesome. That's great to hear. What does American Dynamism encompass? So you said energy, defense?Link

MichelleYeah, I usually describe it as defense, space, energy, manufacturing, robotics, industrials, anything at the intersection of sort of tech and the physical world, or, like, AI for the physical world, or technology and government, where government might be the customer, or government is a regulator or major stakeholder. And I say government instead of defense, because sometimes people think American Dynamism is a pure capital D defense thesis, where only the companies that are building exclusively for, you know, the Department of War or Department of Defense, that is all American Dynamism is.Link

But there can be companies that are building for the Department of Homeland Security, or the Department of Health, or the Department of Energy, and there's a lot of government money across all branches of government, and there's a lot of problems to be solved that aren't just things that go boom. And so government might play a huge role. Or there's companies that are like, government is not meeting the needs, so we will innovate around government. Or if the public services are not delivering, we'll have a private sector company that delivers.Link

Like, the easy, big example is, like, if you think about all of the, like, Ubers, Waymos, all the ride sharing companies, in many ways, that's replacing public transportation. That is, like, allowing people to move around cities in ways that public transportation maybe wasn't serving, or wasn't giving enough access to. And so in some ways, like, that is one of the purest examples of American Dynamism. Like, how do you affect the citizens of an area and help them do things that they weren't able to do before?Link

LubaAnd which part are you most excited about? Do you have a vertical that you invest in more, or you look out for more?Link

MichelleYeah, I would say I look for very early stage companies. And at the early stage, you often are betting more on the team than the technology, because that might not exist yet, or on a very deep understanding of a specific vertical. Because hopefully the company will find a totally new category to create. Like, even if you look at Anduril, not to keep beating that drum, but building a new defense prime was, like, a wild idea back when they started. And now a lot of companies want to become a new defense prime. And so hopefully you will find a company that is like, I'm going to be a totally new category, and that will then spawn new companies.Link

I think that the categories I'm excited about tend to be in the American Dynamism universe. And so I think that they will come from founders that are at the companies right now, like Palantir, Anduril, SpaceX, Tesla, who learned how to be at the intersection of software and hardware, or manufacturing, or highly regulated industries, and now want to apply that same learning or knowledge to something that's, like, slightly different or slightly adjacent. In the same way Anduril came out of Palantir, where it's like, instead of just software, let's build hardware too.Link

LubaI want to go back to your starting as an investor journey. So you got a job at a16z on the American Dynamism team, and gave yourself a, let's do this for two years, mark. Tell me more about that experience, how it's shaped you. And, yeah, what was that like?Link

MichelleYeah, it was amazing. Andreessen Horowitz is a wonderful firm. It's a big firm. There's a lot of people, but we were sort of this small startup within the overall org, American Dynamism. And we weren't a separate fund. We invested out of the main fund, and we got to figure out, in some ways, what American Dynamism meant. And we ended up being, I think, the most active team at the firm during my time there, and did many investments, and I think in categories that we didn't expect. Like Saronic, which is another big defense company, is now, like, trying to be a maritime defense prime. I think that there was no point where any of us were like, we need to find a maritime defense prime to invest in. Like, that came to us, which I think...Link

LubaSo that whole thesis of just going really hard and strong publicly with starting an American Dynamism team really brought in a lot of interesting inbounds.Link

MichelleYeah, and I would say a lot of founders resonated so much with the philosophy of it, versus the categories of it, where they were like, I want to be an American Dynamism founder, because I am building a hard, important thing that matters for the national interest, or matters for the country. And I think that is different than maybe some of the other teams at Andreessen Horowitz, or any big firm, where in more mature categories, like software infrastructure, or, you know, consumer, you kind of, like, market map things out so much, where you're like, here are all the companies that fit this overall space. And, like, where are there holes? Or where are there things, like, emerging? And then you try to find the best company in that, like, segment, and then bet on that segment. American Dynamism was like, come to us and tell us what is an important problem that should be fixed, and why you're the best person to fix it.Link

LubaWas that an intentional decision internally to do that? Because they could have technically market mapped it.Link

MichelleI think, like, yes and no. I think that the market was so new, there wasn't as much to map. Now there is more to map. Now there are more companies. Now it is becoming a more mature category. Actually, I think, like, in the pure defense sector, we're now in a total growth stage, where early stage pure defense is one of the worst places to invest right now. But it was a great place to invest a few years ago, when American Dynamism started, and probably the best place to invest, you know, in 2018, when Anduril started.Link

But at the time when our team started, it was too new. Like, there weren't enough companies to even make a market map, and so you almost needed to solicit, like, hey, tell us what categories are interesting, because we're at the cutting edge of, like, this new time period of figuring out what was around the corner. And founders are typically the best people to figure out, like, what's coming next, because they're the ones, like, heads down on the front lines, being like, there's a huge problem here, somebody needs to fix it, I think it has to be me. And then they'll pitch that back to investors, who get this wonderful summary of all of their work and an explanation of why it's important. And then we just get to be like, you are the most credible, and I believe what you're saying. Like, let's partner.Link

LubaHow did you make the decision and the commitment that you wanted to start your own fund? I see so many people starting funds these days. It seems like there is so much capital. Obviously, AI is super hyped. It's really hard to win deals. I think Pax has, you know, a competitive advantage, because it is an American Dynamism fund. It's new and it's exciting. But I don't know how much money is going into gov tech, defense, all those industries, or energy that you've talked about. So I would have imagined that, while it's exciting and glamorous to be running your own fund, it's also not an easy decision to leave a very, probably, comfortable job at Andreessen. Great firm, you know, amazing inbounds, amazing founders, amazing team. Yeah. How did you come to that?Link

MichelleYeah, very hard decision. Andreessen Horowitz is such a phenomenal place, with such a phenomenal team and a lot of capital and reach. You can do things at Andreessen Horowitz that you can't do anywhere else. But I love the early, early stage and the zero to one, helping people as they transition out of their company into their new company. And often we'll meet them as they're even figuring out their law firm, or figuring out their co-founders, or figuring out, you know, how to approach venture capitalists at all. And that was where I was spending a lot of my time. And when you're at a very big firm, it can be hard to spend a lot of time with a very, very early, nascent company, because there are so many companies you're looking at, often many that are further along, and you're able to deploy much more capital to those companies.Link

But I loved the early stage so much, and it felt like there was a little bit of a gap at that zero to one stage that was, like, a little too early for a firm like Andreessen Horowitz. But there weren't any big dedicated, sort of, early stage funds that were high signal, like, high conviction, and could, like, lead these rounds and then help the founders kind of get the next big round from a very good firm, potentially Andreessen Horowitz. And I thought about it for a long time. I talked to a lot of mentors of mine, and they're like, it's going to be terrible, it's going to be hard and miserable. And it's like, fundraising is the worst thing. If anyone can do it, you can, but you shouldn't do it. And that made me need to do it.Link

LubaOh, wow. You just wanted to go contrarian. Was there any one of your mentors who was like, yeah, it's gonna suck, but you should do it? And who had the most impact on your decision?Link

MichelleSo every person I talked to that had started a fund before said, absolutely, don't do it.Link

LubaHow? So give us more.Link

MichelleThey were like... one fund manager was like, I would not wish this upon my worst enemy. It's very hard. It will take you longer than you expect to fundraise, and then you'll be poor for a long time, because it's expensive to get a fund off the ground. You'll probably take all the money from fees and be investing it into either people you hire or things you're doing to get the fund off the ground. And you won't have all the resources and access you have at Andreessen Horowitz. Like, you have such a good spot, why would you give that up?Link

And actually, it was, like, some founders I talked to, that I floated the idea to, as, like, I might do this on my own. And, like, founders understand the pain of going out and starting their own thing. At every point in a founder's life, they have had to also leave the cushier path, the easier path, and go take the harder path and get something off the ground from zero. And they were all like, absolutely, you should do this. And part of me was, like, the empathy of, like, okay, all of these founders go out and take these risks and build these companies and have conviction. I want to go do that too. And I want to build things at the stage that I love, and the way that I want to build it, and go do this, like, hard, challenging thing. Because I really believe that, like, this could be my thing that I did a very good job at and loved. I would do this for free. I'm currently doing it for free, because it's very expensive to start a fund.Link

LubaNo salary?Link

MichelleNot yet. At some point, obviously, I will pay myself, but certainly the bet is on the upside, not on the salary, when you have your own fund. And I think that's part of it too. At Andreessen Horowitz, there's a lot of people at the firm, and it's a wonderful culture of sort of pooled carry and shared carry, and we all win together. But at an early stage fund, you're betting on yourself, where if you are wrong, you will not make generational wealth, and you might not be able to raise your next fund. If you are right, you do very well. And I wanted to bet on myself and have that risk reward profile that was similar, almost, to a founder, where it's like, you're betting that you can do this better than anyone else in this sector, and if you are right, you'll get rewarded. And if you're not, well, then you, like, go find something else to do.Link

LubaDo you have a lot of competition in the small AD fund space?Link

MichelleYeah, like you said, everyone has decided to start a fund. So there's a lot of funds.Link

LubaShout out everyone.Link

MichelleYeah, shout out everyone. And so, like, yes and no. I think there's a lot of noise in the space, a lot of people, I think, like, trying to get into American Dynamism who haven't spent a lot of time in the sectors or with the people. I think that will go away as the hype around the space, potentially, kind of resets back to a more normal level.Link

LubaAnd actually, on this hype, what's the LP market like? Because, yeah, how are they investing? How are they thinking about what to fund? You and I had a small conversation before we started recording, and you were saying that, you know, American Dynamism, while being hyped and exciting in the Valley, and everyone's like, oh, American Dynamism, it's the best thing ever, LPs are, like, not really sure whether they should be investing, because they have an impression from AI rounds and how expensive they are.Link

MichelleYes. I would say one way to think about LPs is they are often, not always, but often, lagging indicators. VCs are lagging indicators. Founders are leading indicators. Like, the smartest people should be working on the things that push things forward. Good VCs will be kind of right on the tail of that, realizing, like, oh, this was a great thing. Maybe they made an investment. Maybe they start to build a thesis around it. And then LPs eventually hear about things, as things get very successful, and then decide to come up with a thesis about it.Link

And so in the venture space, American Dynamism has sort of grown into this huge bubble. A lot of the big firms have their thesis around American Dynamism, whatever they want to call it. And now some LPs are starting to explore and think about it. But AI is taking up so much oxygen in the investment landscape, where some of these rounds are getting done at such big numbers, not even valuations, just, like, big dollar values of how much is invested. A lot of LPs are spending less time thinking about American Dynamism, or need to be convinced about it, which is always a losing game.Link

If you have to convince an LP that they should care about a sector, you've already lost. And so I've learned that if you are ever talking to an LP, you have to figure out how much they know or care about a sector before realizing if they're going to do an investment or not. Which is very similar to what founders should do with VCs. If you really have to convince a venture capitalist that this sector is important, it's probably going to be a losing game. But if they already have sort of a prepared mind, or some inclination for the space, then they're much more likely to be excited about what you're working on.Link

LubaHow long did it take you to reach conviction that starting your own fund was it?Link

MichelleI think it grew over time, maybe over, like, six to nine months, and it was hard. It was a very hard decision, because I was leaving a very, very good place and job, and there weren't necessarily problems where I was like, I have to, you know, run away from this. But it also felt like there was a moment in time, and I knew it would take time to fundraise, and we were at this critical moment. Every year that I didn't do this was an entirely new vintage of companies that I would not be a part of with my fund, that I think would cause, potentially, the generational returns that you always look for when you have a fund. And I was like, there's no sense in waiting. If this is something I want to do, I have to do it now, because these things take a long time to compound.Link

So it took a little while. And I, you know, thought about it for a long time. And then I was like, you know what? This is the thing I have to do. I need to jump all the way in. And I did it. And I really do think that going through that decision process is so similar to founders that have to leave the very good company. Like, some of the founders I talk to are leaving the Palantirs or the Andurils, and they have a very great job and a great team, and they have done so many good things, and love what they do, but they're like, I have this itch to go build something new, and I see this problem that I need to solve. And, like, going through that myself, it really helps you speak to founders.Link

LubaDo you remember the moment when you were like, okay, I'm doing it, I'm pulling the trigger?Link

MichelleYeah, it was, like, over the summer. I was like, okay, I need to do this. And then the hardest part was actually telling my boss. It was really hard. I cried.Link

LubaWhen you were talking to them?Link

MichelleYeah, it was very emotional.Link

LubaSo were you bringing... was the boss a he? Yeah. Were you bringing him on the journey of thinking about it, or were you only talking to him about the fact that you were leaving once you'd made a solid decision?Link

MichelleIt was after I was like, I want to do this, but it was before I had really made any progress on what that meant. Because I wanted him to be part of that creation journey, and to also get his blessing, if this was something that he thought was going to be possible for me. Sometimes people, if they're leaving a fund to start their own fund, will do a bunch of work, talking to LPs and getting things in order, so that they can leave and have things...Link

LubaWhy did you decide not to do that?Link

MichelleI didn't want them to not feel like they were part of that.Link

LubaRight. Because that means that you were kind of diluting your attention.Link

MichelleYeah, exactly. And so I was like, I want them to be the first ones I tell, and, like, hear the feedback on it too, before going out and talking to potential LPs, who would maybe go back to Andreessen Horowitz and tell them, Michelle was thinking about this. And I was like, no, like, this needs to be, like, something that they support. Otherwise, I shouldn't do it.Link

LubaGot it. And so you had a conversation with David, I assume, and you were in that conversation. Yeah, yeah. Was that... like, I assume it went well.Link

MichelleYeah, he was... I had prepared for every scenario, and he ended up being the nicest I could have ever expected. And he was like, everything you've done in your life has led you to this moment. Like, I want to be your first check. I'll support you. Obviously, like, I'm very sad and don't want you to leave, but if anyone can do this, it's you. Which then, obviously, I'm, like, sobbing at this point. So nice. And he has been, like, so helpful and amazing. And I think that just, like, further validated that it's a very good team, and, like, he was a phenomenal boss, so that has been helpful.Link

And actually, I sometimes use that example again with, like, founders, where I talk to them sometimes before they tell their boss, and I'm like, it is in their best interest to be supportive of you, because then you will be their biggest champion in the future. You will tell other people to go work there. You'll be so happy. And, like, it's a badge of honor for a company if somebody from that company leaves to go start a really great new company. It is much worse for a company if the people leave the company just to go join another equal company. Like, that is a bad sign for talent retention. But people that leave to go start a company, that means you hired very well. You hired somebody that's super entrepreneurial, that could lead an entire company, but they chose to work for you and lead some small team or division of your company. And so I think good leaders will be very encouraging at the point that their people want to go do what that person at some point had to do in their life, which is go start a new thing.Link

LubaYeah. This also reminds me of Netflix's, you should go figure out your market value. And it is very encouraged at the company to go shop around, and if the offer somewhere is better, and if you like something better, you go back and you might negotiate, or you just leave, and you're very open about it.Link

How much pain has been in this solo GP journey? Obviously, it's hard. I'm sure you're working really hard to get to the founders, to talk to LPs, and, yeah, do all the motions and the things. But is it actually inherently painful, or is it hard, but fun?Link

MichelleI would say it feels very similar to an ultra marathon.Link

LubaOh, wow. So pretty fucking hard.Link

MichelleYeah. Where there's definitely moments of joy and flow and excitement and validation, and then definitely moments of pain and a need to grit through things. I would say one of the biggest lessons I learned was realizing that people operate on very different timescales. It's almost like we're in this solar system, and, like, founders, and then maybe someone, like, starting a fund, every day feels very long. So many things can happen in a day. And so if you're waiting to hear back from somebody, like, each hour might be excruciating, or each day, or certainly each week. As you, like, zoom out by the amount of money someone has, they're, like, further away in the solar system, where maybe, like, each week or each month, to them, is, like, a time unit. And they're like, I'll get back to you in a couple months. And you're like, hopefully I'm, you know, done by then. Or, like, that's so long. Like, whole lifetimes can change.Link

LubaAs you're speaking about LPs?Link

MichelleYes. LPs, like, yeah. The more money you have, the slower, not always, but sometimes the slower you operate. And I think it has given me a lot of empathy for founders going through a fundraise, and it makes me want to make sure I respond much faster and, like, give people the clarity. Because sometimes it's, like, the agony of waiting that is the hardest thing, not the no. And giving people a very, like, clean and dignified, like, this is not a fit, is sometimes better than just keeping them in purgatory for a long time. But I would say LPs can be herd animals, similar to VCs, but you just need more of them. So you need to build a bigger herd, which just means, like, getting more and more momentum.Link

LubaHow do you organize, slash, manage your life right now? So you're really busy with the fund, you're married, you're preparing for... I don't know if you have any ultras coming up. I know you have a marathon coming up this weekend, but I assume that's not that big of a deal. But yeah, is there a time management system? What are the secrets?Link

MichelleI think the time management system is just constantly be in a state of panic.Link

LubaBut that doesn't sound very optimistic.Link

MichelleNo, I would say, like, if you ever want to do venture capital, you have to, like, like the reactive, fast paced nature, and then try to find a balance for being proactive about certain things. But you constantly get inundated with inbound. And then you have to, like, balance that with, like, what should I be doing? And so I'll get a bunch of companies where I'm like, oh, I should look at that company to see if I should potentially invest, or evaluate, or dig in. And then I'm like, okay, I should, you know, continue to talk to LPs. And then it's like, I get tons of, you know, random conferences or invitations to things. And you're like, is that a good use of my time? I don't know. Like, will I meet people there? Maybe. Should I speak on this panel? Maybe. Should you speak on this podcast? Maybe. And it's always just a trade off.Link

And so, like, I'm trying to actually take the approach right now of default saying no, and only saying yes when it is something where I'm like, I have to do this. Whereas I think early on, when I just started the fund, I felt this pressure to make sure I was still relevant. And I was like, I should be going to all of the things, otherwise people will forget about me.Link

LubaHow come you don't feel that pressure as much anymore?Link

MichelleI don't have time to feel that pressure as much. And I think now, like, I went to things where I was like, I definitely should have said no to this. This wasn't a good use...Link

LubaTrial and error.Link

MichelleJust trial and error. And, like, I think as you get busier, you just get more ruthless. And I think I've gotten to the point where I have to be more ruthless, and then I feel better about it, where you're like, oh no, I'm just not going to go to that thing. And then it's like, oh, I have time to do things finally, because I'm not spending all my time going to the other things.Link

Probably a third of my time is looking at companies. A third of my time is dealing with LPs. And then a third of my time is, like, general fund management and operations and forward thinking, whether that is, like, events and conferences, whether that's thinking about hiring or interviewing potential people, or just, like, general fund operations management of, like, cash flows and, you know, marketing, and should I get swag, and should I get an office, and all that. There's just so many little things that go into managing a fund.Link

LubaAnd I assume some stuff for, you know, personal life and outside of work.Link

MichelleYeah, I think, like, the one nice thing about venture, if you enjoy it and you want to hang out with the people that you invest in or talk to, is, like, your social life and your work life sort of overlap quite a bit. And my husband works at Palantir, and he used to be an investor, and so he likes talking about the companies as well, and definitely feels like a part of my team. So that, I think, helps, where it's not as, like, segmented, of, like, this is my work life, this is my home life. A lot of it blends together. But we do spend a lot of time together, too, and we try to make time to do non-work things. And because we've been training together for this marathon, we do a lot of our, like, long runs together, or training runs together. And that's actually, like, very special, good time for both of us.Link

LubaAwesome. I have just a couple of closing questions. What's something grounding that you do daily?Link

MichelleHmm, that's a good question.Link

LubaPanic.Link

MichellePanic. Actually, I think walking my dog is the most grounding thing. We live in Pacifica, which is very peaceful. Our neighborhood is very, like, quiet and peaceful. And so walking Rhubarb, that's my dog's name, is this, like, almost meditative, quiet, stress free thing where I get to, like, look at trees and just think about things. And she's so excited and sweet, and that kind of gets me away from a screen. And I can't really text, because, like, I'm constantly, like, making sure she's not tugging too much on the leash. So it's, like, a forced...Link

LubaYou have to disconnect.Link

MichelleYeah, a forced disconnection.Link

LubaWhat's one belief about founders that you have that most people would disagree with?Link

MichelleThat's a good question. I think that in the sectors that I look at, that have very complex sales cycles, whether that's to government or other, you know, complex enterprises, or hardware, in your founding team DNA, you need somebody that has done that before. And you need somebody that has seen how to, like, touch metal, if there is hardware, or seen how to sell to government, if you have to do that. Because the lessons are very long and painful and expensive to learn if you don't. And you can hire people, but if you do not come from that world, or have the gravitas to pull in some of the best talent, you will be doomed to fail. And so I think, like, some people believe outsiders are the best type of founder to come into a sector. I think you can have maybe one of the founders, or the CEO, potentially be an outsider, but, like, you have to have very good, experienced talent in your, like, founding or early DNA, otherwise it's just too many expensive lessons to learn.Link

LubaAnd what's one thing you hope people will remember about you?Link

MichelleI think I want people to remember that I took the big swings and went for it. And hopefully I'm successful, and I will fight very hard to be successful, but I want to be remembered as the person who took risks, and not the person who just coasted.Link

LubaAwesome. Michelle, thank you so much for your time.Link

MichelleThanks, Luba.Link