RobbieBent

LubaHi everyone. We are at Othership in Flatiron, New York. I'm about to interview Robbie Bent, the founder of Othership, who has an insane story of building this business, now an iconic brand— some would say a cult— with him and his four co-founders persevering through, obviously, blood, sweat and tears, but also through multiple permit issues, almost running out of money. Absolutely unbelievable how they've got to where they are, about to open up another location in the Upper East Side, and truly building a brand that has such a crazy amount of detail.Link

I'm excited to talk to him about the culture and values of Othership, how they managed to have such an incredibly strong team. Excited to talk to him about his wife and the relationship with her, about becoming a father, about fear and hard moments of building this business, which continues to be really hard. So I think it's going to be a jam-packed conversation, and I can't wait for you guys to listen to it. Let me know what you think, and let's get to it.Link

RobbieSuch a beautiful thing.Link

Luba100%. Well, Robbie, thank you so much for being here and doing this. I'm curious— we're talking about the beauty of living in communal spaces. Why not build a communal space that could maybe become an extension to Othership?Link

RobbieI think to build something big, like a long goal over time, it's important to have the goal. So for us, the goal is that people feel more comfortable processing emotions, and that becomes a ritual that's practiced daily amongst the mainstream population, and that it becomes much easier to make friends. So those two things, I think, in today's day and age are super important, and that's kind of what inspired Othership.Link

So that's a long-term goal, but to get there, you need to create a business that's profitable along the way. I think where people fail is they try to do something too big without the right steps. And so for tech founders, you see, like, you know, the Elon Musk master plan, it was like the Model 3. There's usually a niche community that likes something that's profitable, and then you build on it slowly.Link

And so for us, that was the sauna and ice bath. It was kind of the Trojan horse: the thing that people wanted to do for physical health. But then when they get there and do it, you realize, like, oh, it's actually an emotional health practice, and it's a way to easily make friends, because it takes away any social anxiety. It kind of operates the same way that alcohol does. So it's kind of a hidden platform that allows people to become friends.Link

So the first thing was like, okay, well, let's build a physical space in urban cities where people will come frequently, and it's profitable enough that you can build many. So that was, like, kind of step one, and where we're at now. Step two for me was to have something that people can engage with daily, so that was an app. So we have a breathwork app; it kind of operates like prayer and religion, so you have a daily practice.Link

And then step three would be a mega retreat center. So what I really want to build is a massive outdoor, you know, 100,000, 200,000 square feet, like a Therme— exactly like that exact product, but Othership style, and more focused on creating friendship and emotional release than a traditional spa. So, you know, if you really like Othership and you come weekly and you make your friends here, you then take the weekend trip, maybe an hour outside of New York, two hours outside of New York. You go to the space, you spend the day there, there's farm-to-table food, maybe you spend the weekend, there's a hotel, and there's, like, little mini retreats that are more accessible than, you know, I've got to fly to do Tony Robbins or something like that. So I think that's the next step for us.Link

And then the step after that would be, okay, build out, like, the community itself. I couldn't think of a way to, like, build the community, the co-living side of community, as the starting point with, like, the amount of capital and the brand we have. So, you know, potentially over a 20-year time horizon. But for now, it's very clear: more Otherships in more cities, one big retreat space where people can come to go deeper. And I think that will keep me busy for a long time, you know, maybe 10 years or whatever.Link

LubaYeah, actually, on the community house, I think the other problem is that you really have to introduce people to this idea first and kind of expand the pie, kind of like what you guys did with Othership. At first, it was a little too woo-woo, a little too different, and now look, there are so many places that copy the exact concepts of Othership. So perhaps it's, you know, you introduce the communal feel first with the things that you're doing, and then you do the Therme, and then people are so primed for communal space, and then that's phase three.Link

RobbieExactly. So I think that's what will happen over time, and so just being alive to, like, capitalize. And I don't know, I think great brands— like, I'm very inspired by stories of founders that work on things for 30 or 40 or 50 years, and they're just passionate over and over, and they become masters of their craft through a long time horizon. And so I just think it's very special when you decide, like, I'm going to work on this thing for a very, very long time. It's much easier to be successful in that way. So that's kind of how I think about it: just day after day, super long time horizon.Link

LubaSo on that point, you guys started Othership as a fun project in your backyard, in your garage. At which point, do you remember, did it become obvious that this is a real business? When did you make that commitment?Link

RobbieYeah. So at first, it was just a horse trough. So legitimately, like, an actual trough that horses drink water out of.Link

LubaWow. Okay.Link

RobbieIn my backyard. And we would go to the grocery store every day and buy $60— I remember that amount— $60 worth of ice. It was about 30 bags of ice.Link

LubaAnd tell me, who is we? Was it you and the other four co-founders, or—Link

RobbieMyself and my wife. And we had just moved back to Toronto. I used to be a drug addict, and so I was really nervous about being around people in Toronto who were, you know, at nightclubs doing drugs. I didn't want to be in those environments. And so we were like, oh, I wonder if we built this ice bath, if we can use it to create a healthy community.Link

So by hand, my wife and I, another couple and one of my best friends from university, we built this ice bath by hand. And every night we would be in our backyard, there'd be a fire going, and it was just free. And it was pretty weird at the time. Like, this is in 2019, so it's before ice baths and this stuff were really taking off. So, you know, I'd be telling people, like, at the corner store, I'd be telling my neighbors, like, come by. And they would just open the door, there'd be a fire going, and we'd do an ice bath and then kind of hang out. And that became really popular.Link

So then it started getting cold out, and nobody wanted to just ice plunge in, you know, the winter in Toronto. So my landlord had this other space attached to our house, and it was a woodworking space, and so we converted it into an underground sauna and ice bath space. And then that grew to 1,000 people, but it was still, like, not a business. It was just something fun we were doing to make friends.Link

LubaHow long into the side project was that? Was it six months?Link

RobbieYeah. So it was about three months in the backyard, all summer, and then the garage started, and we ran the garage for, you know, probably a year. It was a fairly long time. It was still— the idea wasn't, you know— it was COVID also. So we started the garage pre-COVID. COVID hit, and people were using it with an app to, like, let themselves in, with no employees. And so it was like a safe haven for people to still socialize in their bubbles. It was, like, a really important space for people at that time in Toronto.Link

And we just saw, like, you know, after doing that for a year— I was in there every day, and I saw relationships blossom, I saw people become friends, I saw addicts stop doing drugs. I just felt like— it felt meaningful. And I would be telling people, like, "Hey, I think they're actually, like, changing their lives." Like, "What are you talking about? This is a garage. Like, you're crazy."Link

And so myself and my partners decided to self-fund our first unit, and it was a pretty big jump. So, like, a leap of faith. Like, it was still COVID; the vaccine had come out. I remember the landlord and some of the early press were like, "This is disgusting. Nobody's ever going to group sauna. Like, this is insane. You're going to lose all your money." And we're like, "Oh, you know what? Like, I think we have a community, and we can do it." And so we signed a lease, and we self-funded the first space, spent $2 million on it. Kind of put up, like, all our money that we had made in crypto and other things, and just took a huge bet.Link

And at that point, when that opened, you know, it was proving out two things. One, that you could do these emotional classes in the sauna. So that had never been done before, the idea that, like, you'd have these classes and performances. And then two, that people would socialize without alcohol in a bathing space. That had never really been done before in North America either. And as soon as we opened, there were, you know, three-week, one-month waits. And I kind of saw the reviews, and I see, oh, wow, this is, like, really special and really unique, and it doesn't exist. And so at that point, 2022, February, we'd been working on it on the side for almost three years, and that's when it became a business. We were like, "Okay, we're going to try to build this in other cities."Link

LubaWow. So when you say that in 2022 it was still a side business, were you guys working on something else, each one of the co-founders? Or what you meant by that is that's when you started thinking about expanding?Link

RobbieThat's— well, I was still working for Ethereum, actually.Link

LubaOh, you were, from 2020 to 2022?Link

RobbieYeah.Link

LubaWow. Okay.Link

RobbieYeah. So from 2019 to about 2021. And so, like, right when we started construction on that project, it started to become more full-time. And when we opened, it was like, wow, this is a lot of work, and there's something, like, really here. And then it was like, okay, this is going to require all of us full-time, and then we all just kind of went after it.Link

LubaSo the story of multiple co-founders working out and still being together is quite unheard of. Tell me more about how did you guys become so aligned on the vision? Were you the one spearheading the vision? Were there, you know, too many cooks in the kitchen at some point? What is the dynamic like?Link

RobbieYeah. I mean, I don't think— maybe in the whole world, I don't know that there's ever been two couples as co-founders.Link

LubaYeah. That's crazy.Link

RobbieSo, especially for something that's successful. And I think why it's so special is because this is, like, our passion. So, like, you know, I did this every week, every day. Harry and Amanda were working on it for 10 years; they were trained sauna masters in Europe. It's just, like, what we loved. And so to do something that you love, the chance of that is—Link

LubaVery slim.Link

RobbieMinimal. And then to do it with your friends, like your best friends, again, almost zero. And then to have it be successful— you have, like, three things that are almost zero chance. So I feel I could try for the rest of my life to do something and never find an opportunity like this again. So it was really magical.Link

And so, you know, I think at the end of the day, when you go through hard stuff, it bonds you, and so to bond you even tighter with your family and friends, it's amazing. And there's something really special and magic that happens. Like, co-founder energy is very rare, and you have to protect it. And when you're around other people, like, the next level down, that co-founder energy creates magic in the organization. And so when you have five people, like, one of us can be in one space every day; you know, we can be in different cities. And so it's just so inspiring for the team below us, and we've been able to get so far without senior hires because there's five of us. So it really has been, I think, almost a secret weapon.Link

On the flip side, yeah, it's challenging, right? Like, there's five, and to all be together— like, we're seven years in now, and we're still all working on it full-time, which I think shows just, like, the commitment and love for the product. But yeah, it was challenging for sure to find out, like, who's doing what. And I think why it worked is because when we started, it wasn't really meant to be a business. It was just, like, a fun side project. So it's very clear: you're going to work this night, I'm going to work this night. When we designed the first space, it was kind of like, hey, we're going to open this thing, but it's a one-off unit. We're all going to put in a bunch of money and make a little bit of money and see what happens.Link

And then people just kind of found their groove, you know. And so they have deferred to me in terms of, like, strategy. So where are we going to open? How are we going to figure it out? How are we going to finance it? How are we going to do the storytelling and the brand? My wife became the lead creative and head of marketing. So she runs our app, the language, every social post, how our brand shows up. She's done an incredible job. She manages a team of 10 people. She's really scaled her skill set. It's unbelievable. Miles had done a bunch of restaurant stuff in the past— he's one of my best friends— and so he took on construction and operations.Link

And then Harry and Amanda are, like, these magical humans that have, like, the dedication. Harry went to architecture school, Amanda went to business school, but they're also super creators. So Harry's a musician, an artist, and they were facilitators, and so they created all the programming. So I think what's very unique about Othership is a lot of founders will have a business idea, and then they're like, "Oh, let's externally hire the yoga teacher to make the thing." And, like, for us, we are the ones that create all the content on our app, all the programming, all the classes. So they're really, like, the soul of the brand.Link

So having all those skill sets together, they just kind of naturally developed, and as they're mostly, like, product skills, nobody's really been replaced yet. Like, they're unique skills that require founders. So it's a lot of, like, voice, product, marketing. There's not anyone in the world at this point that's really better than us at, like, bathhouse classes, 'cause they didn't exist before.Link

And then, luckily, everybody had the same vision, where it was like, hey, we all have been, like, moderately successful before, we're taking salaries now, and, like, we're happy to do this for a really long time with our friends. So no one was like, oh, I want to sell. It was like, let's build this for 20 years, which is also very, very rare. Most people start a company, five years, try to sell it, massive exit. Like, that's not the goal for us. Our goal was, like, what can we do every day that's going to bring us joy? And it's really hard, but it's so much fun and it's so rewarding, you know, to work on your passion. So I think a lot of things we've experienced together that are just very uncommon as a group have led to this kind of successful thing, and you just feel like, wow, you know, the world just kind of works in mysterious ways, I guess.Link

LubaYeah, that's really incredible, and, as you said, unheard of. I recently was talking to Sam Parr, doing a similar interview with him, and he said that one of the very common things among successful people that they've pointed out is the importance of luck. Just the importance of things— stars align in the right way, and you just have no control over it, but something magical and unique has happened. And it sounds like that's the case with you and your co-founders.Link

RobbieYeah, I think you have to have surface area for luck. So it has to be lucky. Like, you know, when we started this, it didn't exist, and the desire for health from COVID exploded, the desire for mental health, the issue of mental health and cell phones, the desire to drink less. Like, there's so many mega tailwinds that are happening. It's not like we planned, hey, all this stuff is going to happen. We were just building this experience that worked for us, that we loved, and it just happened to be, like, perfect timing, really. But yeah, you can never plan that stuff.Link

However, you know, we were working on something that we were really interested in. And so I think the more you work on something that you love, the luck kind of comes. So, you know, you're never going to get lucky if you don't create surface area for luck. But both are important.Link

LubaYeah. 100%. So for, you know, deciding on who is going to be your co-founder, one of the most important conversations to have is, like, what outcome do you want to have with this business? And was it truly the case that all of you were exactly aligned on wanting to build it for 10, 20, 30 years?Link

RobbieYeah, because, like, the idea was— it wasn't really a business where we sat down Y Combinator style. We're like, here's our idea, we're going to get investor capital. It was just like, hey, this is a fun thing we're doing in a backyard to make a community. So we just did it for fun. Then when we built the first one, it was like, I think this will be successful, but it was, again, like, it's going to be a fun place for us. It's not like it's going to be life-changing, building one unit. So again, it wasn't really a real business. It was just like, we think we're going to build this one thing. It's going to be the best hot-cold space in the world.Link

LubaYeah.Link

RobbieAnd then after that, the position became, like, what do we want to do with this? And it was such a part of our identity for those three years where we were building that first space. There wasn't the desire to sell. The desire was, like, how do we continue to do this together? How do we create more? How do we have a bigger impact? How do we spend more time together? Like, these are my best friends, you know? So I just couldn't imagine a piece of money that would be better than that. And this is, like, what I feel like I want to do.Link

So sometimes I get stressed about financial scarcity. So we've had times, you know, where we ran out of money. We've had times where our builds were way over. It's very hard to predict how much one of these will cost, especially when you're doing multiple builds, how fast it's going to ramp. So you can feel like you're in a space of financial safety and then be very quickly in a space of, like, wow, I don't know if we can even finish this build. And in those moments, sometimes the stress is like, fuck, I wish I didn't do this. Like, it does feel like that. But not because I don't like the work, but more because I'm afraid that, like, I'm going to lose my house and go bankrupt.Link

And so brick and mortar is very different than a normal startup, in that, like, you sign the leases, you personally guarantee them, there's so much capex required up front, and you're kind of on the hook for it. So the only moments when I'm like, I wish I sold this, are when I feel like it's going to fail or we're going to run out of money. And, like, sometimes it's a real fear, and that's very hard to deal with. But outside of that, the day-to-day of the actual work is, like, incredible. Like, we're downstairs talking about our next space and, like, what we're going to put in it. It's just so inspiring. Like, it lights me up. So that's why I think all of us were like, "Yeah, let's keep doing it." Like, what else? What do we do?Link

LubaThat's amazing. Tell me more about a recent moment when it was close to falling apart.Link

RobbieWell, this one wasn't recent, but this was probably, like, the worst moment. So two years ago, we were opening in New York. We had this first success of this Adelaide, like, smaller one, this $2 million one that we self-funded. And when that was working, it was like, okay, well, I think we have the money. We raised $2 million to build a second one in Toronto, double the size, because there was so much demand. And then we raised $8 million to build two in New York, and we signed two leases. And I totally fucked up the budget of these. I based them on Toronto.Link

You know, we found out that what we wanted to build in New York was actually illegal. We signed a lease and didn't realize— like, we have co-ed change rooms, which are much smaller, in Toronto. And so people come in, they change in stalls, but they're all together. And in New York, that's illegal. So in the lease we signed, the space wasn't big enough. So I had to go back and change the lease and rent the basement and dig— like, cut through the floor to suspend the pools into the basement. So the budget exploded.Link

So I had $8 million to build two. I'd signed two leases. I think I was really naive at that point, from that first one being successful, that, like, hey, I can do three of these in two countries in parallel. So that was a big dream that, you know, I was probably overconfident. It turned out for the best, but at that moment, that first one, we'd found out, oh my God, this is going to be $7.5 million, and we also didn't have the money to finish it.Link

And we made a mistake, an accounting error, using a third-party accounting team, where an invoice was missed. It was marked as paid. And so I got this call. And so this guy gets on this call with me, and he's like, "Hey, I just want to let you know, we owe this construction company $2 million." And I was like, "Well, what do you mean?" And he was like, "Yeah, well, we're probably going to be out of cash in, like, 20 days." What? And so he said, "Hey, well, why don't you just raise some equity?" And I was like, "Well, that's not how it works. You can't just raise equity in 20 days."Link

And so I was in New York. We couldn't get open. We couldn't get our permits. So we were delayed, way over budget. And at that point, I also had another lease signed that was, like, sitting there. And so I was just like, man, I have this lease I can't build. I have this other space that costs so much money. I don't know if this is even going to be successful in New York. I don't know if I can even finish this build.Link

And I was fighting with construction workers on the site because I can't pay them, but if they don't finish the job, they'll never get paid. I was smoking a vape all day, like, every day. I was going down to City Hall and, like, begging them to give me a permit to, like, temporarily open. And at that moment, we had to figure out how to get the money. And so I mortgaged my house. My co-founders mortgaged their house. I had to call my mom. She mortgaged her house. And we had to do that to get a couple million dollars to lend the company personally, which— we're still guaranteeing those loans. But we did it.Link

We ended up getting open. We had 18,000 people in before we even opened. It was profitable month one. Month two, it, like, blew the projections out of the water. And so even though we spent so much, that unit is still going to be a very good return. And then the second one, we were able to cut, like, 30, 40% out of the build. We figured out all the problems we had in the first one, and it opened successfully.Link

So we solved it. But there were moments there where I was like, okay, I don't know how I'm going to open this. I think I'm going to go personally bankrupt. I've destroyed our entire brand. I wish to God I'd never heard the words "New York" in my life. And I was, like, really— like, you know, every three days, four days, I would wake up in cold sweats with, like, nightmares, just, like, almost crying, like crying. And then my son was born at that time, so it was pretty intense. Yeah, it was pretty fast. So we figured that out. And that's just— it's very hard with these physical businesses to understand your costs in advance of building. It's almost impossible, especially for your first one in, like, a new city.Link

LubaWhat made you push through it and actually, you know, mortgage your houses out? Was there no other option, or were you seriously, okay, like, fuck this, I'm just going to not do New York, and let's sell the business?Link

RobbieNo, I mean, like, you can't sell the business. I don't even think it's worth anything with just, like— you know, I don't even know if it's worth the debt when you have stuff that's not performing, with just two Canadian units. So there was just kind of, like, no option. It's like, hey, you have to figure this out. And, like, we'd put already four years into this, and every day I'm seeing people, like, having these life-transforming events. Like, I have a book at home with over 2,000 messages. So every time someone sends me a message, or I see a special review, or someone gets married at Othership or finds their partner— we had five couples that met—Link

LubaThat's amazing.Link

RobbieThey have been married. Some have had babies.Link

LubaWow.Link

RobbieSo they always send me messages, and so I keep them in this book.Link

LubaWait, is it a physical book?Link

RobbieYeah.Link

LubaWow, so you print it out?Link

RobbieWe have this thing called the Daily Happy, where we save all these things. So anyone can post it— it's called Best Testimonials, in Discord— and then those testimonials, the best ones, get put in the Daily Happy, and then that gets sent to our staff three times a week. So you're always seeing, like, the difference that you're making.Link

Yeah, I think that's the most important thing when you feel really stressed. Like, I would go to the class, and I'd hear someone share that, like, oh, I just did an organ transplant for my son, and, like, he was going to die, and now he's not. And people were like, it's unbelievable, that experience. So I was seeing that happen, and then our company was profitable in Toronto. We put so much work into it.Link

And, you know, to raise money when you need it in 20 days, the terms you're going to get are so punitive. And so people were offering me— they were trying to take advantage of me, and I was like, you know what, like, fuck this, no way. You know, I still to this day remember these investors who did this, and they're in, like, my grudge book of, like, fuck you. And so the terms just weren't good. And so I was like, you know what, we can figure this out. It's working. I knew when we opened in New York it was going to work, because the product is so good, and I just felt it.Link

And so, like, it was a bad time and a bad situation, but there was never any doubt that, like, the product is phenomenal and new and unique, and New York needed it. And so we just believed in ourselves, bet on ourselves and did what it took. And as a result, yeah, maintained equity and control and, like, didn't have some shitty deal with some sharky investor. So it turned out, but it was definitely a big swing.Link

LubaYeah, that's an incredible story of perseverance. And on fear: what are you scared of right now?Link

RobbieI think every time— like, you know, the market is becoming more competitive. Like, when we started, we were the first, and there have been inspired concepts in, you know, the UK and France. In each city we're in, there's obviously inspired concepts. And so always when I hear about one, I try to ignore it, but in my bones, it's like, are they going to be better than ours? You know, are we going to still be the best? I mean, you know, I think we still are, but we spend—Link

LubaYou guys still are.Link

RobbieYeah. So we spend so much time to make it the best, but I fear, like, what if we're not the best anymore? So that is a big driving factor as well. Just, like, hey, we put this thing out, we put our entire lives into it. It's part of our identity. We've written all the scripts. We designed the space. We've done everything. Like, I want to be the best. That's a massive driver.Link

And, like, no detail is too small, you know? Like, every single one of our playlists is, like, handcrafted. Every class, we're mixing and mastering the music together into, like, a specific track. We're designing now custom light shows that, like, work with the music and the sound. It's just elevating. Like, our new space has sound transducers in the tea room, so the benches themselves will vibrate with the sound. So it kind of creates, like, a tactile experience. So always just trying to make it better. So I think that's one fear.Link

And then two is, like, financial scarcity. Like, you know, to some degree, for a brick-and-mortar business, when people open beside you, it's like, oh, what if they fragment the market? What if it's not successful? I think for me, I had a company that went bankrupt when I was in my 30s, and I was, like, pretty close to broke. I had maybe 60 bucks left in my bank account. I had to move in with my mom and my dad, and so that was embarrassing. And the thought of, like, that— I can't, like, get it out of my body, even though, let's say, like, everything's going super well. So I think those are really the two fears. It's like, what if somebody is better than us? And that's, like, a very powerful driver for making the best thing.Link

And my co-founder Harry's the opposite of me, 'cause I'm, like, paranoid and he's, like, ultra confident, you know? Like, when a new place opens, I want to go check it out. And I like this— Sam Walton is, like, an entrepreneurial hero. I follow all the brick-and-mortar entrepreneurs to find which ones I like and, like, learn from them. So Sam Walton would go to Kmart on his vacations and always try to get two ideas to make Walmart better. And so that's my vibe: go to every place, do this every week, try to find out how we can always elevate. And Harry's like, "We don't need to do that, man. It's the best. Like, I'll make it the best, personally." Like, he's so confident. So it's a really nice juxtaposition.Link

But yeah, I'm more afraid naturally, I think, because of my upbringing. So that's what I'm scared of. And it's tough. Like, the financial scarcity stuff is real. Like, even now, the new space we're building was initially going to open next year, in the summertime. Yeah, so all the designs are done. It went to bid. We should be starting construction in a couple months, but it's a big swing for us. So initially, we were going to build a fifth Othership on the Upper East Side, same thing, but the space was, like, a little bit too big. So we were like, "Oh, what do we do?"Link

LubaYou're doing a bathhouse concept, right? Yeah, I heard it on one of the interviews. Really excited about it.Link

RobbieThe initial was going to be a regular Othership, plus we had, like, a few extra thousand square feet. We're like, "Oh, do we do massage in that space? That doesn't really feel on brand." And, like, "Oh, do we do something private?" That's kind of cool; sometimes people want it quieter. I'm like, "Oh, what about, like, a mini bathhouse?" And then we're going to have it in two sides. So it'd be, like, a super premium bathing space at a different price point than is known in New York, but with programming. So, you know, there'd be programmed classes in the steam room, programmed classes in the pools. Everything would be slightly different.Link

And then most recently, we were like, "Well, if we're going to do the bathhouse, why don't we go all out?" So we took even more space, and now we're building what we're calling, like, the first social spa. So it's a spa where you'll be doing many treatments, but together in groups, in, like, a class format.Link

LubaThat's very unique.Link

RobbieYeah. So it's never been done before. So again—Link

LubaWhat's an example of a treatment?Link

RobbieSo we're doing something now that I haven't seen in the US. We've seen it in Europe and in Canada, and we're trying to elevate. I like to go into these, like, fringe experiences, get inspired by them and then kind of make them a little more mainstream. And so a new one is called a Rasul. And so there's a steam room with showers in it. And so we saw this at Thermëa in Canada and got inspired by it initially.Link

And so the idea is you come with this easel, and there's, you know, a scrub, a clay, a face moisturizer. And so you come into the steam with this easel. You scrub your body in a group. Maybe if you're with your partner, you'll scrub each other. Shower comes on, washes you off. You'll then put clay on your body. And while the clay is baking, the steam starts going, and while that steam starts going, the guide may, you know, lead a group song. They may play a sound bowl and do a sound bath. They may do a breathwork. So it's kind of taking the classes we've been doing in the sauna, moving them into the steam room. Once you're, like, super hot, the clay is baked, showers come on again, you wash off.Link

And so when you come out, it's like you had an individual scrub treatment. Your body, your skin feels amazing, but you're doing it in a group. So it's, like, part fun, part spa treatment, at a much more affordable price than a one-on-one scrub. The idea is, how do you take these, like, very expensive spa treatments, make them a little bit more accessible, make them a little more social? And that's going to be the theme of the Upper East Side space.Link

Now that space, we initially thought it was going to be, you know, five, six million dollars, and it's going to be multiples of that. And so every day I'm, like, stressed about it. But I think we just want to build the best thing, and I know building the best thing is costly. And so it's a huge bet that only a founder can make. Like, when you have a successful business model, it's like, well, why are you changing it? And I think we're elevating and evolving with, like, what the market wants.Link

LubaYeah. You have to reinvent yourself all the time, especially given the competition.Link

RobbieExactly. And it's much easier— I mean, no one's built what we've done to the level that we've done it. It's very hard to, like, design one of these spaces. Not many people have done it. It's very capital intensive. Then to train and create all the content and programming— it's another, like, you know— for a single-unit brick-and-mortar operator, it's quite complex. But it happens, and people are building nice spaces. But to build a social spa with this level of programming and investment, it's not something that many people will be able to compete on.Link

And so we also think having multiple different versions in a city is super unique. So, you know, if you're a big Flatiron customer, it's something special. You'll drive up to the Upper East Side to try this.Link

LubaI'm super excited to drive up.Link

RobbieSo that's what we found. And it's kind of just pushing the envelope of, like, what's possible. And I think we've done that with the best sauna and cold plunge experience in the world. But nobody's really innovated on the spa, like the pool, the steam. You know, there's nothing there. Like, it hasn't changed in thousands of years. So is there a way to use programming to make those experiences new?Link

LubaI am super excited for the space. I love treatments. I love the day spas. I love the group classes. It's a combination of all the things. So I'm really excited for the Upper East Side space.Link

And I have so many bookmarks in my mind about the things that I want to double tap on. One that I want to start with is actually just this concept of fear and getting rid of fear. You've done a ton of personal work. You've been, you know, to the cave, to Hoffman, to all these different retreats. Do you feel like you made the fear that comes up inside of you smaller because of all the work that you've done, or is it still the same?Link

RobbieNo, I think it's the same.Link

LubaIs it possible to get rid of fear?Link

RobbieI don't think so.Link

LubaWhy? Why not?Link

RobbieSo, is it possible? Perhaps. Is it possible for me? I'm not sure. Maybe I'm a scared person naturally, but it's like, I'll be afraid, but I'll do it. But it doesn't make it feel better. And it kind of reminds me of the cold plunge. It's like, you look at it, and I've done it thousands of times, and every time I'm not like, "Oh, it's going to be awesome." And then after, you feel amazing. And it's like that kind of feeling, you know? If you have to let somebody go in your organization, or give bad news to an investor, or, like, have a challenging call to hold a boundary, like, it's always hard, and there's always, like, a little bit there.Link

LubaIs it that most of the time it's the fear in anticipation of the experience, or is it the pain during the experience itself?Link

RobbieNo, it's the anticipation. The pain during the experience is never usually actually that bad, you know? It's always just like, oh, these 10 things are going to happen. I saw Bryan Johnson talking about, like, you know, writing something at the end of the day to let your mind know to stop worrying about it. I thought that was a good idea, but I've just been too lazy to, like, try it.Link

And I just think fear is also related to, like, what happened to you as a child. So my wife is, like, never afraid for the business. I'll talk to her, she's like, "You're like a black cloud. You know, like, this is going great. Like, just chill out." But then when something happens in our family, in health, I'm always, like, very optimistic, 'cause when I was a child, like, nothing really bad happened with my, like, relationships. I was super lucky. So with those things, I feel, like, so optimistic, like, yeah, we're just going to get through it. But business, like, money stuff, really scares me.Link

So it's, like, a really good practice. But I still will wake up, and if I feel sick and, like, low energy— like, if I feel high energy, it's like, yeah, we're going to crush it. Of course, it's so amazing. And if I feel low energy, it's tough. So I've been really prioritizing my health this year, so I can, like, be in that mode of creation and not in fear as much.Link

LubaSo let's say you are anticipating or feeling this visceral fear. Do you have any sort of toolkit to deal with it in the moment, or are you like, okay, I've got to fucking do it, and that's it?Link

RobbieI think it depends on the fear. So if it's, like, company-related— you know, what if the numbers aren't good in this unit? What if we spend too much money? What if we can't raise the money? What if the competitor is better?— I'll just go to the experience, and I'll feel better every time. And I'm looking, like, oh my God, it's amazing. Of course. Like, you know, you've got to, like, have that inspiration to, like, believe in the thing, and the fear subsides, and it just also becomes, like, who cares? This is so amazing and so fun. Like, of course it's awesome. So that's really helpful.Link

And then there's a fear of, like, you know, is this person going to like me if I say this thing? And I've heard that, you know, if you're an entrepreneur, it's better to just have no feelings and, like, no introspection. And that's kind of what you see on—Link

LubaYeah. Yeah. That was Marc Andreessen's famous—Link

RobbieReason is, like, you don't care what people think of you. That's a weakness, you know. Unfortunately, I'm not that vibe. Like, I want to be a good person, and maybe that's a weakness as an entrepreneur. But so it becomes tough to hold boundaries if you care about what people think, you know. So I think in those situations, what I found— my sister's a CEO also— is just, like, do the thing. The faster that you do it— like, when you do it, it's never that big of a deal. It's just the anticipation in advance.Link

LubaYeah. There is this book called *The Tools*. Have you heard about it? I'm sure you've probably heard about a similar thing related to fear and pain in one of the retreats or programs that you've done: you just visualize pain as a big cloud, and then you tell yourself, "I love pain," and then you imagine yourself going through this cloud screaming, "I love pain." And basically visualizing going through the experience and priming your brain to say that this experience is actually awesome. And doing it right before, you know, you are doing something scary, or when you have these feelings that bubble up. And it's actually really powerful and helpful. And it is kind of like going through the cold plunge before going into the cold plunge. You just tell yourself how awesome it's going to be. You visualize it, and then it's much easier to actually do it.Link

RobbieYeah, all these practices are so awesome. It's like, if you find the time— like, I think what happens is you get busy, and then it's just, like, it sits in your body, and it's like, you know. But there are solutions. That sounds like a perfect one.Link

I had a friend last night who was talking about scripting. So writing a script to visualize. And he was working on it with Claude, and he would read it every night, and, like, everything he wanted to do. He's saying there's something called the reticular activating system in your brain. Like, when you give it a focus, it will find ways to make that focus happen. And so it's kind of the scientific backing of manifestation, you know, the scientific explanation of that. And he was just saying he's been using it, and as a result, he found, like, a whole bunch of patterns that made things much easier. So I thought that was really cool, and so maybe I'll try that.Link

But I would say 90%— like, what I thought entrepreneurship was at first was like, I'm really talented at X thing. I'm an individual contributor. I can build this thing. And what it turns out to be is all the meditation and dark retreat and managing your emotions becomes, like, 90%. And it's like, am I too afraid to do this thing? Can I keep my cool? Can I react in the proper way? So I think I've changed my mind on how important it is to manage your psychology. And I imagine a lot of companies break just because, as a founder, your psychology breaks.Link

LubaYeah.Link

RobbieSo I think that's, like, really— it's really important to be able to somehow turn that stress into, like, a game, or not real stress, and, like, just be in acceptance mode. I think it can be very valuable.Link

LubaSo what is in your emotional toolkit right now? 'Cause you've said a couple of times that, okay, time is the biggest thing. You know, if I had time, I would be doing all these practices. Are there practices you're still doing?Link

RobbieYeah. So the most important is just being healthy, I think, is number one. And so I flip-flop. I've tried, like, every single thing. Right now for me, a couple things this year, like, really moved the needle.Link

So I put a treadmill under my desk, and a Peloton, and on the Peloton I put, like, an iPad tablet connected to Zoom. So all my calls now I take when I'm walking. And so I'm trying to get, like, three to four hours of zone 2 every week, plus 10,000 steps per day while I'm working. And, you know, I never was about standing desks. I found just having that activity for my brain has been, like, significant. So that was one.Link

Number two, I tried for the first time a peptide, like a GLP-1, a microdose amount. And I have lack of impulse control. It's, like, one of my challenges as an addict. So, you know, if I was going to shop, I'd overshop. If I was going to eat, I would just crank pizzas at night. Like, I like stimulation. And so I found the GLP-1 to really improve my impulse control, and as a result, I'm eating perfectly, which means I'm having perfect sleeps.Link

And so I use this app called Alma, and it's a super easy food tracking app. And I think just knowing that I'm getting, like, my whole grains, my fruit, my vegetables, a certain amount of protein, a certain amount of carbohydrates, hitting my diet— like, those two changes are not that big of a deal time-wise or money-wise. And as a result, I've lost, like, 10 pounds. So I've lost 3 or 4% body fat, and I'm still working just as hard. It's, like, stuff I'm doing while at work.Link

And so I honestly think, like, if you feel good, if you feel healthy and your energy is high, the paybacks are enormous, because I'm even noticing now, like, that fear is, like, way more reduced. And when something bad happens, it doesn't feel like a catastrophe. So those are, like, pretty easy shifts for people to make. And again, bodies are all individualized, but for me, those were, like, huge ones in the last kind of year.Link

LubaI'm always amazed how big of a difference even half an hour or an hour more of sleep makes sometimes. And I'm generally a good sleeper, but let's say I sleep seven hours one day, and then consecutively for a few days, or it's six and a half hours, and then finally I go to, like, seven and a half hours, and it's like I'm wearing rose-colored glasses. Everything is better, life is better, weather is better, my attitude is better. And it's true that it's such small fundamental changes. I think so many people over-index on, you know, the supplement stack they're going to take or the meditation they're going to do, but then their sleep is shitty and their diet is shitty. So it's kind of like starting from the basics.Link

On the competition front, do you believe that it's possible to build a business with abundance mentality? With being like, we're expanding the pie, competition doesn't matter, we're going to be friends with everyone?Link

RobbieMaybe. I mean, there's things that are built that do expand the pie.Link

LubaI mean, I think you guys have expanded the pie. And actually, a couple of times— for instance, in San Francisco, there is a couple of spaces that are imitating Othership's feel. And I remember talking to the owners and being like, oh, you know, Othership is so great in New York. And they'd be like, oh, we're friends with Robbie, you know, he's doing a great job. And I'm always like, oh, wow, you guys are all, I guess, friends expanding the pie together. But the reality is that, of course, there is certain scarcity around someone opening up a store or a space that is very similar. So—Link

RobbieSo brick and mortar is interesting, because it's not winner-take-all. So it's not an Uber or a Facebook, where there's one winner, there's network effects. You know, a restaurant, a coffee shop, there's going to be many. And also, like, if you're multi-city, like, who cares, you know? So I'm friends with a lot of the operators in other cities, because we're not actually competitors.Link

Now, where you might have competition is when someone is a block from you, and that competition is real. People will decide, I will go to this or I will go to that. And I think that is harder to be friends then, or to be, like, abundance mindset. The first thought is, like, yeah, we want to be better. Of course we want to be better.Link

Now, I don't know. Like, you know, one thing I think is true is, like, it's great to see your competition, see what they have, but too much focus on it— like, you can't. One thing I've learned— like, I used to get so scared the first couple times. Like, I'd never built anything anyone wanted to copy before, and the first couple—Link

LubaThe biggest compliment, when someone—Link

RobbieYeah, people say that. It doesn't feel like that, you know. And I was just like, oh, man. And it's now happened so many times. It's like— I heard Adam Neumann talking. He was saying there's 40,000 models similar to WeWork across the world. And so I think it just happens. The better way to do it is just, like, to be abundant. But it's just, like, you can't control it, you know? There's absolutely nothing you can do. So worrying, it just takes away from your energy.Link

Now, it's super easy to say. I think I'm getting better at it than I was initially. But it's still— you know, if someone is opening beside us, I'm curious what's going to happen. Do we have to go faster, you know, to be in certain markets? So I'd say I'm trying to be abundant, and I like the idea of helping people. So definitely there's things I'll share. You know, if you want help with construction or insurance or, like, different, you know, legal stuff that's not really core to our strategy, I'm happy to, like, help and be cordial. And I think that's good, to, like, pay it forward. So I'm actually friends with almost every bathhouse owner. But there's still the fear, and they have it too, and sometimes we'll even talk about it. We'll be like, "Man, does it feel scary to you? Like, we're competing," you know? Like, you just name it up front and kind of see that, okay, they're humans too, trying. We're trying. But the incentives are, like, one of us can win. So it's a very interesting mix of emotions.Link

LubaHow do you commercialize the space without losing its soul?Link

RobbieI think, you know— so this is, like, really— I've been thinking about this a lot, 'cause people say, "Oh, it's the community. It's a community." And I actually don't think it's possible to build a real community business. So communities are—Link

LubaTell me more. Why is it not possible?Link

RobbieCommunities are small groups of, like, close friends that form in a decentralized way, and anything that is scaling goes against that. So the business itself is not the community. You need to build something that allows communities to be built within, as a result of the product.Link

So a good example of community, a funny one: like, fantasy football. People will play fantasy football as the product. Through that product, they will interact every week, sometimes for 10 years. It will deepen their friendship. I have friends who were kind of friends in university, and they've been talking for 18 years, playing fantasy football, 'cause it's, like, a low-lift thing that has ritual to it.Link

So I think when you create a product, like, first it has to be excellent. If the product experience itself is excellent and it's ritualistic, it brings people back. And then if it touches a nerve and has a mission— you know, a mission or some type of competition. So Hyrox is a great example of, like, a way for people to compete together. So they come back, they ritualize their training, they compete together. Othership is another example. It's people who care about processing emotions. It's a certain type of niche, and it's a ritualistic practice, and it's something that people want to do frequently.Link

And so the product itself creates the community, because it brings people that are like-minded together. But we're not a community business that builds that community, you know. It kind of happens organically within. And so all we can control is the product: make it good enough that the community builds itself. So I just really think that if you have a community of, like, you know, I don't know, people who listen to music and they're really interested, it's very hard to make that into a product at scale, because the community naturally breaks down at a certain number of people. Whereas if you have a product that many people can use, that forms many micro-communities within it, I think that's how you actually build a community business.Link

LubaWhen did you start feeling like there is a community forming from the great products of Othership?Link

RobbieI mean, right from the beginning. You know, like, you kind of are in the space and you watch. Like, what does it mean to have a community feeling? I think it's very simple. We're actually coming out with a new product of small groups, and it's designed specifically around what makes people feel lonely. So if you study the research, people always say, like, oh, belonging, loneliness. Like, what does that even mean? You know, if you ever see, like, okay, you can measure your steps and your body fat and all that stuff— how do you measure social connection? Everyone's like, oh, social connection. What does that mean?Link

LubaWhat does that mean?Link

RobbieDoes it mean we're friends? We go to a movie? Does it mean I hold your hand? Does it mean I— like, what does that even mean, you know? And if you look in the research papers, what it actually means is that you feel heard and that you feel safe.Link

And so we're designing a class with six people. We're not going to call it, like, the loneliness class, but that's what it's for. It's to create an environment where you feel heard and where you feel safe, and really amplify that environment based on the questions that are asked. Getting everyone to speak, getting everyone to listen, teaching them those skills.Link

But when we started Othership, that stuff happens naturally in a sauna, because you're not on your phone and people just start talking. And so if you go to any bathhouse, you know, there's 10 people in the sauna. Usually someone's like, "Hey," and they just start talking. It's because you feel amazing and you're not on your phone. So I was just seeing that happen in our garage, like, because you come out of the ice bath, the first thing you want to say is, like, "Whoa, that was amazing." And then, like, it just starts conversation.Link

So that, like, initial I-feel-nervous moment was, like— like, why don't we talk to these people in this line now? 'Cause you're like, oh, maybe they're going to think I'm weird. What am I going to say? So the ice bath and sauna just create a forum to start talking. And because people start talking, they, like, go on dates, they become friends. And so I saw in the garage, like, so many of these connections happening. It was just, like, very clear that, like, this product can create communities. But it wasn't like we're trying to build a giant community. It's like the product created it itself.Link

And so then how do you lean in to make it even easier? It's like— another thing we're going to work on is creating connections digitally first and then enabling them physically. And so it's very— still, like, even in an Othership class, like, you might talk to somebody, but probably 30% chance you won't. And so you might be going there on your own journey, you might be with friends. There's friction for you to go and talk to someone, because they might not want that, you know? And then if you go and try that and you get rejected, it's like being in high school all over again.Link

So it's very easy to make friends digitally. The rejection, like, isn't there in the same way. Like, people are used to using dating apps and all kinds of services. So we want to allow our community to meet and match digitally via app, but then develop those experiences IRL. And I think that is, like, another huge unlock: a way to reduce friction in allowing your customers to become community.Link

LubaWould you then say that Othership's core mission is to reduce loneliness, versus create spaces where people can, you know, experience sauna, cold plunge and bathhouses?Link

RobbieYeah, I think the space— I don't give a shit about the, you know, bathhouse space at all. You know, like, that was just the platform that I found was the best for helping people connect quickly. And I felt it was also the platform for— there's two goals. One is, you know, helping people make friends, feel less lonely, feel seen. And the other one is processing emotions.Link

So a lot of the stuff I was getting from these Othership classes were things I was getting in therapy or psychedelic medicines, but with way less friction. And so therapy— I've had 15 therapists, and it's $250 a session. I've had amazing ones, but to get there is hard. Like, you have to explain all this stuff about yourself—Link

LubaMultiple times, if you switch them.Link

RobbieYeah. Exactly. And so, like, what is the easy access point to that, the lightest lift, at, like, an accessible price point? And I just found the hot-cold classes with the group share after. They're actually doing a number of scientific papers and studies with different universities on this specific method of connecting people that don't really know each other in these classes. But they're sharing vulnerable things, but you don't know their name, but because you see them, there's, like, familiarity. Yeah. And they say it goes against how traditional socializing works. So, like, that's fucking cool to me.Link

So one mission is loneliness, friendship, and the other mission is just a way to explore your emotions, for maybe people who were like, I don't care about that stuff. I'm not going to do meditation. I don't care about therapy. It's like a Trojan horse to get people to feel— I think to know themselves. Like, that's my tagline: "spaces to be yourself with others." It's this idea that you can be, like, who you really are. I like that a lot.Link

LubaHow did you personally get obsessed with the emotions work? I know that you discovered Vipassana when you were in Israel, and started your training when you were broke, on kind of finding yourself and finding purpose. Was that the roots of your obsession with this specific problem of knowing yourself and having space for emotions?Link

RobbieYeah. I mean, I think— like, you know, you talk about, like, founder-market fit. Like, this is the thing that, like, ruined my life. And so the solution to it that made me happy and, like, feel better is, like, something I wanted to give to other people. And so I tried so many of these things. Like, I was really insecure. I really cared about, like, money. Like, I was a real people pleaser. I really cared what people thought about me. And so I was unhappy. I wanted to make my mom proud. All these things, like, normal people go through. And as a result, I got super into drugs and, like, almost died a couple times. And then to fix that, I had to go through a lot of these experiences.Link

And so Vipassana was one. It was the first one where I realized, like, why am I feeling this way? Like, a lot of times it's like, I don't even know that I'm feeling insecure and frustrated, and these emotions are just happening. So Vipassana was a tool of, like, oh, wow, I'm not happy, you know? Like, there's all these feelings inside. And then psychedelic medicines really helped. And then I got sober. And so it was always after that, like, how do I feel like I can make it in this world? I feel comfortable and confident in, like, who I am. And so all these tools were ways to find, like, who am I? Like, how do I feel? Who am I?Link

And the more and more I did— the darkness retreat, Hoffman Process— I was like, well, these are so hard to do. Like, you have to go live in a cave for nine days. That's crazy, you know? No one's going to do that. And I would see so much change in myself, I wanted to, like, bring it to others. So always in my mind, I'm just thinking of, like, okay, what's, like, really cool in religion that makes people feel a sense of meaning? How do we help people feel that way, but meet people where they're at? And I love meditation. I know maybe four people that meditate daily, and I know 200 that would like to, and, like, it just didn't work. So it was like, how do we find creative and innovative ways to make people feel who they are? And I just kind of got obsessed with, like, that, you know.Link

LubaWith retreats and personal development, do you think there is a point where you can totally overdo it? Because now there are a lot of people that, you know, make it almost their main hobby and mission to go to retreat after retreat after retreat. When was a stopping point for you?Link

RobbieI mean, I used to go— now is a stop point, 'cause I'm just busy. So I think I'm probably under-retreated now. Like, I need more. Like, I just think going once a year to not be on your phone— even the simplest retreat is just, like, turning your phone off— I think that's, like, always useful, you know. It could be quarterly. Like, once annually, I think, is, like, a really good cadence, and, like, maybe something one or two days quarterly in nature.Link

But yeah, you can get lost in, like— I mean, who am I to say anything? But the spirituality— I know what you mean. You're like, I just go on retreat after retreat, but then, like, my life doesn't change, my relationships don't change. So for me, it was really like, I used those things, and my life did change. But the most important thing is, like, my relationship with my wife, and how am I feeling in terms of fear? Am I feeling meaning? And, like, even with this job, sometimes I'll feel, like, overwhelmed and scared. It's like, what am I doing? Am I falling backwards, you know? Like, I'm human also.Link

So maybe the beauty is just in being like— you really ask me, like, do you really change? And I was like, I don't know if you do. Like, you feel the same emotions, but maybe you just accept them more easily. So I definitely think there's space for retreats annually, but then you have to ask yourself, like—Link

LubaAm I actually making changes—Link

RobbieAnd are my relationships better? Yeah. And, like, maybe you don't need to go. Maybe your relationships are great, and, like, you had an awesome childhood and didn't go through struggle, and you feel confident and, like, awesome. Then, you know, you're a great person in the world, and you can just enjoy your relationships. But for me, it was something that, like, I needed to— I think to heal parts from when I grew up.Link

LubaYeah. I find that retreats could be helpful for anyone, but it's key to actually do the integration and do the changes. Because it's very easy to be like, oh, well, I need to, you know, have this piece of information and learn a little more about myself, and then finally I'll be free and I'll be fully healed. But then it's actually about going out into the world and maybe making more mistakes, or maybe seeing how you actually can apply the concepts that you've learned to create that change, versus, like, over-retreating yourself all the time.Link

RobbieYes.Link

LubaI'm curious— sorry, go ahead.Link

RobbieNo, I agree.Link

LubaHow did you meet your wife?Link

RobbieI messaged her on— so our friends sat us beside each other at a wedding. So two of our friends were, like, dating and got married, and I sat beside her at this wedding. And it was back when I used to do drugs, and so I was doing drugs at the wedding, and I didn't eat any of my food, but we talked for, like, four hours. And I was like, "Wow, I really have a crush on this girl." And then she kind of started dating one of my friends, since I moved away, and I was, like, super jealous. And so then we didn't talk for a while.Link

I was living in Israel. I, like, went on this whole trip where I did Vipassana and got sober, and I was posting about it. And I think in Toronto at that time, not a lot of people were interested in, like, Vipassana and psychedelic medicine, and she was like, "Whoa, that's really cool." And so I just, out of the blue, like, messaged her. She posted something on Instagram, and I was kind of, like, making fun of her, like, just like, "Hey, cool," like, kind of a— yeah, like, flirty kind of vibe. I don't know if I would do that today. But she messaged me back, and then we talked the entire trip. And then I was like, "Hey, I'm coming home. Like, do you want to pick me up from the airport?" And she picked me up from the airport, and I was like, "I'm going out for lunch with my mom and my grandma."Link

LubaThat's very direct. You were just like, "Pick me up."Link

RobbieYeah. Again, I'm, like, looking back, I'm like, "Wow, this is insane." But then I was like, "I'm going out for lunch with my mom and my grandma. Do you want to come?" And that was our first date: lunch with my mom and my grandma. And my grandma was like, "I like this girl. I think you're going to marry her." And she always, like, claims that now, like, "I knew right from the beginning."Link

And then our second date was— she did research and was like, "Hey, I know you don't drink. We should try this thing, the cold plunge. I saw Rhonda Patrick talking about it. I think it could be good for what you want to do." So it was, like, her idea completely. And then we went to that bathhouse the first time, and we went every week. Actually got engaged inside our sauna in the garage, with, like, a little ice ball, and the ring was inside.Link

And so, yeah, I think I really felt like a bad person before dating her. I had, like, a negative view of myself from, like, partying and, like, doing things that are maybe selfish. And so I just thought, like, wow, if I'm, like, a really good person in this relationship— well, there's, like, this thing called, like, the Michelangelo effect. Have you heard of it?Link

LubaNo, I haven't.Link

RobbieIt's like the partner you're with, by imagining you to be a certain way, can make you better. And so I was like, "Wow, this girl is so good. She's so smart. She's so amazing. If I can, like, be a good partner for her, I must be a good person." And then it made me feel like I'm a good person. It gave me, like, a ton of confidence to start this—Link

LubaAlmost like affirmations.Link

RobbieYeah. So, you know, that relationship built up my character so much. And I think without her, I don't know if I would have been able to stay away from drugs and alcohol and have done this thing. So it's really a beautiful story, and I credit, like, all the idea to her. And that's, like, probably my most joyful thing in my life.Link

LubaThat's incredible. I love that. What do you think she saw in you?Link

RobbieI don't know, man. I think, like, you know, people want, like, a fix— you know, someone who can be fixed, I guess, is a dream.Link

LubaIt's like she was a fixer. I can be the one that changes this person.Link

RobbieWell, she did.Link

LubaYeah. Yeah. So I guess sometimes it works.Link

RobbieI have, like, a big heart. I think I'm, like, pretty soft on the inside, but, like, sometimes if I get scared, I'll be aggressive, 'cause I'm afraid. But inside I'm, like, a soft little boy, and I think she just loved that. She saw, like, a big heart and an exciting person who, you know— also, like, I'm the type to always do new things. So I'll do research and, like, oh, let's go on this adventure, like, let's do this thing. And, like, I think she just thought it was interesting. So I think those things: I think somebody who would, like, love her and, like, be, like, really fun, always support her also, and, like, push her.Link

So, you know, when she started, she had a master's in science, and was, like, you know, one of these people that are, like, very underrated. Like, they're very smart, but then choose something that doesn't give them a chance to grow. And so she was working at a hospital. It was, like, an okay job. And now she, like, runs marketing for this huge company, and she crushes it. She, like, runs our paid ads. She does design. She's, like, learned how to manage an engineering team. Like— and so I think if you get smart people and, like, push them to grow, they can just, like, flower.Link

And so when we first were starting dating, she was, like, very shy. And I think, like, you know, now she manages nine people and is, like, holding them accountable. Badass mom also. That's been insane, to see her be, like, a mom. Like, how much she cares about her son. To see what, like, the love of a mom is, is crazy. So I've watched her— like, yeah, I guess I pushed her also, and have watched her, like, grow into this, like, fierce mama, and it's pretty fucking cool. So yeah, I think we both have been very synergistic.Link

LubaThat's beautiful. And I love the way you talk about her, and how, you know, she made you better. On the point about being a father, and a mother in her case— so you guys have a three-and-a-half, four-year-old son?Link

RobbieYeah.Link

LubaHow did being a father change you and change your outlook on the business?Link

RobbieYou know, I have ADHD. It's, like, very hard for me when they're, like, super young, 'cause I found it so boring. And so it's, like, a bad— you know, maybe I don't know if I should say it on a podcast, but I just always try to be honest and transparent.Link

LubaI think that's true. I've heard that from a lot of people, you know. The kid doesn't really do much, doesn't interact. So—Link

RobbieEspecially for the dad. And I'm not, like, a natural caretaker, like some people are. It's not what I get, like, stimulation from in that way. And, like, chores— like, I've never, like, really— I, like, don't like that. And so for the first two years, I felt like he loves my wife so much, which is awesome. Like, their bond is, like, insane. Like, he follows her into the bathroom. He'll be holding her hand. We let him sleep in our bed, actually, which at first was, like, really cute, but now he'll, like, be like, "Daddy, like, go to your own bed. Like, you're getting out of the room." I'm like, "What the fuck?" So that's a whole story.Link

But yeah, I think at first I was more like, I'm trying to build this business. I used to be able to work at this time at night. I'm, like, trying to be a dad, but I can't— like, all I'm thinking about is, like, worry around work. And then now I'm, like, actually— I don't even really like to be away for more than two days. I start to miss my family. And it's, like, fun. Like, it's just different.Link

LubaWhen did you have that shift? How old was your son?Link

RobbieTwo and a half was when it started to really shift. And now it's, like— he asks for me if I'm not there. He's like, "Where's Dad?" And, like— you know, he calls it a polar bear— I put him on my shoulders. I walk him to school every day. I pick him up from school every day, and I put him on my shoulders and carry him home. And, like, he's asking for that when I'm not home. And so I think those moments are, like, really amazing. And for someone who's always in his head, it's very helpful for me to, like, ground for a bit and just feel, like, human and less focused on work, which, for a high achiever that's, like, a bit neurotic, it's hard to get out of that vibe. So I think it's really changed my life just in terms of feeling grateful.Link

Yeah, but it's been hard too. Like, I'm, like, a nostalgic person, and so I will look at old photos and I'll, like, start crying. So we're trying to have a second, but we're having fertility challenges. We've been trying for, like, a year. And then I'm like, man, did I fucking miss these two years because I was working so much and I, like, wasn't emotionally there? Like, I was there— like, we work from home, and I'm there every day— but I was just, like— yeah, it felt like some regret. And so I would look at these old photos and be like, oh, I should have been more present, and I'd start crying. And, like, he's still young, so I can, like, make up. He's only three and a half, so I'm sure I can.Link

LubaYeah, he probably won't remember.Link

RobbieExactly. So it's just interesting, the emotions that come up. It's like, am I a good dad? How much time should I spend? But also, like, I want to be healthy, and I want to have a relationship with my wife, and I want to be a good CEO, and I want to build. And you can't do all those things, though. So there's, like, five things, right? There's, like, dad, relationship as a husband, health, work and friends. And so the first and easiest to let go is friends. So no friends, basically, for the last couple years. No social life.Link

LubaWell, you have your co-founders, right? Your best friends.Link

RobbieYeah. And so, like, that's work; I kind of put it there. But yes. But so no, like, you know, "Hey, let's go for dinner," and, like, "Go play padel," and, you know— just very much none of that. Then there was health, and I really sacrificed my health for the first few years building the company. But in the last year, that's become a priority, so I feel better. And then there's work, which is, like, super important. Always want to work more. And you hear people be like, "Oh, you're a parent. Like, you just become more productive." Maybe, you know. But there was, like—Link

LubaThat hasn't happened to you?Link

RobbieWell, like, 7:00 to 9:00 a.m., I used to, like— I would work. And then, like, 5:00 to 7:00 p.m., we go do dinner. We do dinner as a family every night. We sit down at 5:00 p.m. no matter what. I'll come downstairs, we'll cook dinner, and then we put him to bed. And then on the weekends, like, one day. So there's, like, time. Now, do I need to be doing that much work now? Probably not. Probably not effective. You know, maybe I should be more efficient, but there's way more there.Link

And then being a husband— you know, we're tired all the time. So how do you, like, continue to be romantic, and—Link

LubaAny tips for that? What do you guys do?Link

RobbieI find my wife more sexy now than, like, ever. Like, I—Link

LubaBecause of her becoming a mom, or—Link

RobbieI just watch her at work and how she is, and I watch how, like, confident she's become, and I watch how much she loves her son. And, you know, it's like, you always think of, like, what kind of partner do you want to pick? And, like, one that's nurturing and caring and, like, capable of that kind of love and sacrifice for somebody. It's, like, so lucky. So that, like, turns me on, and, like, I find her so sexy, more so than, like— it's pretty crazy, actually. So I don't know if it's because I'm healthier or what, but, like, I've found her more attractive as we've gotten—Link

LubaThat's incredible.Link

RobbieOlder. So I feel, like, I wish we had more time together that was just us, 'cause, like, she's always— he was around. Like, to get a nanny— and it's like, we just started going on dates again, which has been awesome. And then there's time as a dad.Link

And so I feel like I'm doing zero out of 10 on friends, so I sometimes feel lonely. Like, nine out of 10 on health, 8 out of 10 on work, 10 out of 10— no, nine out of 10— relationship, and then, like, as a dad, like, getting better. So they're all, like, good— no friends is bad— but none are, like, perfect. And so you just kind of sacrifice. Like, you can't do all those things. So it's, like, a bit of a weird feeling for somebody who wants to be, like— you know, I don't know. How do you think about it?Link

LubaAbout which part specifically?Link

RobbieLike, how do you— if you're planning on a family and kids and stuff, and, like, having all those things be successful?Link

LubaI am hoping that it's going to be possible to design my life where I would be able to have it all, in a way. But at the same time, I'm also not thinking that I will be, you know, going super, super hard on something that's going to be, like, the next billion-dollar company. I actually just ended up shutting down the startup that I was working on. So perhaps, you know, I'm saying this because I have this very recent trauma of going really hard and then having to take a step back. So never say never.Link

But at the moment, I'm really trying to figure out how to design systems and, like, really fill my cup when I'm starting to feel not great, and kind of inserting, you know, the friends, or inserting the family, whenever my body tells me that I have to. Because it's very easy to lose yourself. And I'm kind of thinking that it's almost, like, a part of your job to be fulfilled, to be able to work really hard as well.Link

RobbieYeah, exactly.Link

LubaSo obviously, it all sounds great hypothetically, but I don't know if I'll be able to really, really execute on it. But that's how I'm thinking about it.Link

RobbieCool. Yeah, we'll have to touch base on it.Link

LubaYeah. I'm curious about becoming a father. Were you one of those people who always saw yourself as a dad? Or are you more experiential, like, you wanted to become a dad because it would be, like, a cool human experience to go through?Link

RobbieI think it just felt normal, like a normal thing to do as part of society. Like, I never really thought I wasn't.Link

LubaSo you never were like, "Oh my God, all I'm dreaming about is to be a dad"? 'Cause there are some people like that.Link

RobbieNo, but I also wasn't like, "Oh, I don't want to be a father." It was just kind of like, "Oh, this is going to happen someday." I actually wish I had kids earlier. So if I go back— well, I was 38 when we had our first. Now I'm 41, and I'm just a little bit older. And it's, like, bringing me so much joy.Link

And so, despite all the work, in the same day I'm like, I never want another kid, and then I'm like, I want five. I just think this idea of, like— my wife forced this on us, was, like: be around the dinner table. I didn't eat dinner as much with my family sometimes, but she did it every night growing up. And so that's what we do, and it's, like, so joyful. And I could just see having, like, four kids around. Like, it's amazing, you know? Like, there's these things that are awesome. And I was just with a friend at Othership while you were there, and he was saying, like, he went on a surf trip with his son, and they slept on the beach, and he's seven years old.Link

LubaThat's amazing.Link

RobbieAnd I was like, whoa, that's going to be so fun, you know, when he's, like, even that age. Like, I've heard the mom is, like, zero to six—Link

LubaLike, everything.Link

RobbieAnd then the son, like, wants to push into the world, and it's, like, kind of the dad's job. The mom's safety, and the dad is, like, pushing him out a bit. And so, like, from 6 to 12, it's, like, the dad's time to, like, you know— so I'm, like, really excited about that, more so.Link

But for a long time, I was like, oh, I've got to make money. I'm not going to be secure. How am I going to afford it? How am I going to have the time? I'm so selfish. I want to be healthy, too. And so I was like, I don't really want it. And so I think I was afraid, and maybe too selfish. And then now that I have a son, I'm like, I kind of— like, it would be nice to have more, but I feel old to have more.Link

LubaI think now, you know, with longevity and everything, hopefully we'll live a healthful life for much longer. So you'll be able to enjoy it. Doesn't matter, you know.Link

Yeah. I think the recurring theme is fear. Like, fear of getting old, fear of losing money, fear of losing the business, fear of the competition crushing.Link

RobbieYeah.Link

LubaYeah. I want to talk about Othership's culture and values. Every time you go into the space, it's amazing to see how every employee is super grateful to be there, is, like, super kind and warm, and clearly is obsessed with the fact that, you know, they get to work at Othership. What is the hiring process like, and what is the training process like? I'm sure you guys have some sort of crazy playbook.Link

RobbieYeah, so we do. We have three core values: inspiring awe, building belonging, cellular commitment. And it's just this idea: inspiring awe is, like, feeling like a child. Cellular commitment is that, like, yeah, it's hard. Like, wellness, growth, that's hard; it also requires commitment. And then building belonging is that we're doing this to help people become friends, feel like who they are. So those are, like, our core values. They're, like, pretty prevalent. But again, like, who cares what these things are that you just say, you know? How do you embody them?Link

I think the most important thing is, honestly, people just using the product. And so we give prizes. We track how many times people are going. We'll ensure they've gone to every class. We'll shout out people who go to a lot of the classes. And so I just— if you go to a class on acceptance and you cry and it moves you, of course you're going to want to be in the space and, like, working there, you know? So I think the most important thing is that people use the product. So I'll never hire anyone who, like, is like, "I don't sauna or cold plunge." Like—Link

LubaYeah.Link

RobbieOkay, it's not going to be a fit for you. So you can have all, like, the fancy training, but I think the number one thing is, like, do you feel like you're giving value to others? Are you proud of this thing?Link

And then I think people see the founders. Like, you know, Harry and Amanda were working 16-hour days. They wrote all the classes. They are the best guides. So the guides themselves can be inspired, because it's not, like, just some business guys telling them. It's like, wow, they walk the walk. They do the thing.Link

LubaIt's almost the same as raising a kid. Lead by example.Link

RobbieYeah. Exactly. And so I think people love that, and it's like, there's a real mission, you know? Like, what kind of spa is like, "Yeah, we're going to make a dent in loneliness"? You know? So I think people love to work for a mission-oriented brand that's real. And, like, you know, people can compete, they can copy the design, they can copy the classes, but, like, we started this in a backyard, not to make money, for a purpose of connecting people, and that's, like, real. It's authentic, you know? And so I think people, they like that. You know, they want to be part of something that has an authentic story. And, like, in a world of AI, where anything can be fake now, that's, like, the hottest commodity: just, like, people doing authentic things for a real reason.Link

So I think people liking the product, liking the story, and it's just a good vibe. Like, people are generally happy when they leave. So if you see— you're in class and someone cries and is like, "Wow, you changed my day," it's like, "Holy shit, of course I want to be in here." Everybody's super friendly. Like, it smells good. Like, the space is actually just very pleasant.Link

And then we have a 200-hour training program as well. And we've always been obsessed. Like, I always thought—Link

LubaAnd you train everyone from the front desk staff to the guides?Link

RobbieFront desk, guides, the deckhands— you know, the front desk are called stewards. So there's names for every position: first mate, ship captain, assistant ship captain. We, like, really believe in world building.Link

So, like, we'll never sell another product out front. So if you look, it's very unique for a brick-and-mortar space. Like, we don't carry products. We carry only our own line. We make our own essential oils. We make our own incense, our own signature scents. All the body care in the experience smells like the classes. So we control every single element. I think that level of detail provides, like, excellence and brings you into our world.Link

So I think language is, like, really important. Like, it's not— you know, people have always been like, "Hey, we've got some journeys for you." And they're like, "Journeys? Like, what the fuck is that?" You know, we call our customers journeyers. I just think it's important to have a world that people can be a part of, to, like, really feel bought in. And that's why people say it's a cult. Like, it's a cult because you have such emotional experiences. But that's what you want if you're building a consumer product. It's like— I look at, like, the Bible, you know, or, like, a religion, where, like, people hate it or they love it. And so if you want to give meaning, you have to create emotions. I'm, like, a firm believer in that for building any— all the best brands do that.Link

LubaHow did you learn that? Like, how did you learn that you needed to have shared language, that you needed to instill these values? So at which point did you realize that that was the playbook? And that actually segues into one of the things I'm really curious about. You obviously have the tech startup background. One of your startups really failed, and then you went to Ethereum. Was any of that learned through that experience, or was that completely different?Link

RobbieI think every experience, like, you learn something, you know? And over time, you start to realize, like— the first one is just, like, hey, I can solve a problem, and I can figure it out. Like, I remember, like, in banking— I worked in finance— I was so trained to solve a problem in a certain way from school. And when I got to the first startup, it was like, "Oh, we need to print this, like, flyer." And I was like, "Oh, how do you do that?" It's like, I'm going to call the flyer company and find a designer and do the thing. And just the idea of, like, once you get into a startup, like, you just have to solve the problems on your own, from end to end, without asking for help. Like, how do you actually make something happen from end to end? So that was, like, a pretty big learning to start: just that attitude.Link

And then with that attitude, I got really into, like, founders' biographies. So I've listened to probably every episode of the *Founders* podcast. I've taken a lot.Link

LubaTell me about the ones that have particularly inspired you.Link

RobbieI really like the episodes on, like— he does these ones on, like, how X works. So, like, how Elon works, how Jensen works, how Steve Jobs works. And so I'll listen to all of these. Like, especially, like, there's, like, 12 or 14 on Steve Jobs. And so listening to how he creates products and how much he cares, that is amazing. Like, that lesson of, like, the details matter. And you might not think they do, and you don't know which ones matter. So some don't, but you don't know which ones are important. And so when you have a level of care on something, people can feel it. And so they'll come to Othership and be like, "I went to this place, and it just didn't have the soul." And it's like, yeah, because every—Link

LubaLevel of detail is—Link

RobbieThe sandwich board out front. It's, like, a custom sandwich board. Like, you know, so nobody else has that sandwich board.Link

LubaOr, like, the gemstone-inspired lights that—Link

RobbieSo there's so many different, like, little things like that. So that I learned from Steve Jobs, from Walt Disney again. Like, you know, there's one episode on Disneyland, and he was saying, like, he used real leather on the horse carriages, and the team was like, "Nobody will ever know. Like, we should just cheap out." And he was like, "The customer knows. They're not stupid." So that was really— this is so inspiring, how he built Disneyland. Like, thinking that you can do these crazy things and bringing something in your mind to vision.Link

And then I've listened to a ton of the brick-and-mortar experiences. So I got pretty obsessed with hospitality. My family's in the restaurant business. I've done the Danny Meyer training. I went to Will Guidara's conference.Link

LubaDanny Meyer training?Link

RobbieSo he's the creator of Eleven Madison Park and one of the most famous restaurateurs. And then Will Guidara worked there and turned it into the number one restaurant in the world. And so he has a book called *Unreasonable Hospitality*. He has a new book that just came out called *The Unreasonable Hospitality Field Guide*. And so I think gyms traditionally have been just shit— like, bad hospitality, for the most part, same as fitness. And so taking restaurant hospitality, where it's, like, so high stakes, you know, and so important for the experience to be good, and bringing that into our space has been something that really inspired me.Link

So I learned a lot. Again, there's an episode on Danny Meyer there. There's other brick-and-mortar people that just, like— like Todd Graves from Raising Cane's has been at it for 40 years, and he's built a $30 billion chicken finger company. When you listen to how much he cares— like, every single ingredient is hand-selected in the chicken fingers to make them the best chicken fingers in the world. I just love listening to this stuff. And through it, it kind of inspires you when you're having a bad day, of like, okay, no, the details are important. The product matters. I can be, like, this obsessed about something, and people will care, and they'll notice.Link

LubaDo you think that level of obsession can be learned, or do you really have to be working on something that you genuinely, deeply, deeply care about?Link

RobbieYeah, I think you have to work on something that you care about, otherwise you just won't. It doesn't have to be necessarily the product itself, but you have to be excited about solving the problem. I think it's very hard over a long period of time to do something you don't enjoy.Link

And so when I'm, like, talking to my co-founder— today we were talking about a tea offering, and how could we elevate our tea offering to make it, like, a professional tea ceremony? And could we make our own glassware and sell the glassware with local artisans, and have these, like, crazy full-scale tea ceremonies, and build in our new space, like, a proper tea room you might find in other cultures? And it was so exciting. Like, I was getting, like, pumped, and we're, like, brainstorming. There's just, like, an energy in my chest, like a feeling, and I'm thinking about it. And I'm like, "Oh, like, building that experience. What would people do? Could we add breathwork to it? Could we have, like, questions and journaling as part of the tea ceremony?" And just, like, thinking about that stuff was exciting.Link

So I could do that all day. I would do that for free, you know? I would go out to these experiences and go to these classes just for fun. So I think that makes it a lot easier to work on something for a long period of time, if you really care.Link

LubaWhat's a recent experience that really inspired you?Link

RobbieSo there's a place— like, we're doing now— I mentioned, like, the social spa treatments. And there's a place I really like in downtown Brooklyn called World Spa. And there's a very specific venik experience there. I learned about the venik through that experience, and this glazing with honey and salt on your body.Link

LubaAnd venik, right? Yeah. Yeah. I actually grew up going to the banya every single weekend. My grandparents had a banya, and then the men in the family—Link

RobbieLike, in their house?Link

LubaYeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. 'Cause it's so common. I mean, not literally in the house. It was an outpost, like a separate building. And the men of the family would go to the forest to cut the trees to make veniks. So we always had custom-made, you know, man-made— like, our family made veniks.Link

RobbieThat's amazing. Yeah. So I went to that experience and learned about it. And then I found this guy— Dan the Banya Man is his name— and he's from one of the Slavic countries, and he lives in Minneapolis. So we went out to his house for this five-hour sauna experience in the woods. And it was him and his family, and they made us fresh tea and food, and there were all these crazy things happening in the sauna. And I was like, "Wow." Like, I can't believe our experiences are one to 64. Then in one to 64, you can only give so much attention to each journeyer. But for him—Link

LubaWhat do you mean by one to 64?Link

RobbieOne guide, 64 people. So you're kind of watching the guide, but you're not one-to-one. And so in this experience, it was one-to-one. It was almost psychedelic, in terms of how intense he was going— the spa and what was happening. And so I got so excited, of like, oh, can we bring an experience like this that's more one-to-one? So now in the social spa, we're going to have more one-to-one, one-to-four programming. And that whole idea came from that experience, and now we're, like, in the process of implementing that. So that probably was the most inspiring idea of last year, and will be the biggest change to Othership: to move from, like, a one-to-64 class to one-to-four, one-to-one programming, in addition.Link

LubaThat's incredible. And that's going to come across all Otherships, not just the Upper East Side?Link

RobbieWe'll test, like, the Upper East Side. It's harder in the current Otherships because the sauna is so large. So there's no actual private space. Whereas in Upper East, there's smaller features, so there's more ability to carve out a feature for, like, a one-to-one or one-to-four experience. But you never know, like, until you start testing. So maybe during a free flow, when it's less busy, there'll be a way to carve out private experiences. Or maybe people don't care that it's private, and we'll just have, like, a little section of the sauna where we'll do different experiences.Link

So I just think, trying new experiences all the time. Like, I've been to every bathhouse in New York, like, multiple times. I've been to over 100 bathhouses worldwide. I've been across, like, 20 countries.Link

LubaWhat are your top three across the world? Outside of Othership, of course.Link

RobbieMy favorite one is Balnea, and it's on the outskirts of Montreal. It's the same family that created Bota Bota. And from them, I learned the importance of a view, and it's really made me consider that, like, some of our spaces should have an outdoor component. I think it's something missing. It's hard in the city. But there, it's on a private lake, and there's this pool on the top of this hill where you're just looking at this private lake, and it's so stunning, the view. And then the food's all farm-to-table, and you can go down and swim in the lake. And they built this, like, meditation— like, beautiful wooden kind of room with sand on the ground, where you put your feet in the sand and you look out at the lake. And so it's like you're watching a movie of nature. So that's probably my favorite.Link

From a programming standpoint, my second favorite was probably this Dan the Banya Man experience. Like, one-to-one, deep in the woods. He had made this hot tub with copper cables around a fire.Link

LubaIt's deep in the woods in Brooklyn?Link

RobbieIn Minnesota.Link

LubaOh, it's in Minnesota.Link

RobbieYeah. So on the outskirts of Minneapolis. So he made this hot tub with a copper cable around a fire, and the fire itself would heat the copper cable, which would heat the water. Yeah. So he has this hot tub, and it's got a fire in the middle. So you're sitting in the woods, like, 110 degrees, outside, individual hot tub, like, watching a fire in front of your face. It's like, wow. Like, this is amazing. So just these type of experiences— I like to go to ones that are, like, very extreme, and then see what we can learn from them and then bring them back.Link

You know, one time we did this creative— we have, like, these creative retreats. And so we did one around a fire with, like, a drum circle. It was inspired by, like, Kanye West's Sunday Service, this idea of, like, doing music outside. And so my co-founder Harry made this amazing electronic music track with breathwork over it, where you're also drumming to a beat. And so we all took some psilocybin. I spent three hours, like, drumming while doing breathwork, to just be more creative. And it was incredible. Like, fun thing to do in a group. And so I think—Link

LubaWhat were the ideas that came out of it?Link

RobbieThat one, we actually went to when we were designing New York. So it was a full design weekend. And so every night we would do these breathworks to send, like, ideas to the subconscious. Then we had this 15-star experience that, you know, I'd heard Brian Chesky talk about. And so everyone on the team wrote, like, a 20-page summary of the perfect Othership experience if there was no money required, like, if that wasn't an object. And someone had an idea to make the sauna, like— you come into it, it's like a Gravitron, and it, like, spins into, like, a basement, and a secret underwater cold plunge cave, like a waterfall.Link

Through that, we just realized, you know, diving deeper into the programming is always valuable. But we did a bunch of cool stuff on the retreat, and it led to, like, the design and, like, the look and feel of this particular space. So we brought our designer. And so we always do these kind of off-site retreats to get ideas, and I think they're, like, very fun and impactful.Link

LubaI want to end on a point of balance. So we briefly talked about— you know, there's family, there's work, there's friends; something has to go. You're going so hard. There's health, of course, also. Do you feel like there's going to be a stopping or scaled-down point at some point? 'Cause I know you're building this for the long term.Link

RobbieYeah, I mean, now, like, health is back, so that's important. And I used to just be like, "Oh, I'm going to have 100 calls today." So I don't do partnerships anymore. My sister does, so she's taking that over and is crushing it. I don't do finance anymore. We have a full finance team. I just hired our first senior executive. He's unbelievable. So he's really helped me. Like, he's owning construction, where I had to, like, be involved a lot. That's a lot.Link

LubaHow many people does Othership have right now?Link

Robbie250.Link

LubaOkay. Well, that's pretty substantial.Link

Robbie250. Yeah. No, it's hard to keep— I guess it's at a point now where I can't really keep on top of everything. So I feel like our executive team, for the first time, is, like, really solid. So I think now I'll be able to focus more again on, like, product and new experiences. So every— we need some more money, too, so I have to figure that out. But every time, you know, it becomes like, oh, I'm just one month away from getting back to the product. So I hope that's actually true this time. But I could see next year having just this, like, fully focused on product and new spaces, and it being just so much fun.Link

LubaAnd last thing: what's your life philosophy in one sentence?Link

RobbieJust accept. Acceptance. Just that one word. Yeah.Link

LubaOkay. Amazing. Thank you so much, Robbie. This was awesome. Thank you.Link