BryantChou

LubaBryant, thank you so much for coming on the show.Link

BryantThank you. This is so fun already.Link

LubaReally fun that I get to walk this slow. This is very nice.Link

BryantAbsolutely.Link

LubaOkay, so you were the CTO of Webflow. And just for context, one in every hundred websites or so is on Webflow, which is insane. And you decided to go ahead and build another company. Why?Link

BryantWell, the story is that while I was at Webflow, I was actually the CTO. But maybe a few years into it, I actually started our growth and our marketing teams. And essentially, like, that experience showed me how different the world of marketing and growth is compared to engineering. So you were an engineer, so you're probably used to certain rituals, certain, like, ways of getting work done. Jira tickets, epics, and every day, every standup was very regimented in that respect, right? But the world of marketing is inherently this, like, organization of chaos. Like, a CMO is constantly being quartered by the organization between, you know, branding needs, product marketing needs, demand generation. Everything is always on fire.Link

So I just came away with this realization that, hey, we're actually now at a really important place and time where AI agents can completely change how marketing is done. And that's what led me to Ploy, which is starting with the website. You know, the website can truly act as the front door of the business. It can introduce the prospect or the customer to the product and services, and you can actually create this incredible sort of automated engine for marketing and growth with AI.Link

LubaSo walk me through what exactly Ploy does, and what are some obvious use cases.Link

BryantSo what Ploy does is it starts by slurping your existing website, and...Link

LubaSlurping. I like the choice of words.Link

BryantThe slurping. So when we were coming up with this particular piece of technology, we were just trying to decide what to call it. But essentially...Link

LubaThis should have been, like, Slurp AI.Link

BryantYeah, exactly. But, you know, this is just one very small part of our platform. But what the slurp does is, you just sign up, and it automatically knows what is the URL of your company, and it goes and creates this brand design system, all these components. And we essentially really want to create a very strong visual understanding of your brand. And from there, that visual understanding can be used to create net new pages for SEO, conversion rate optimization, demand generation, account-based marketing, all these different things that typically would take a lot of time to really get right.Link

So a lot of people are coming to Ploy right now to build a brand-new business, but also a lot of people are coming to Ploy to optimize their existing one. So we see a lot of people that are coming and rebuilding their sites, redesigning their sites. Also a good number of them are also slurping their site.Link

LubaAnd would you say that the main customer is a business owner, or is the main customer a CMO?Link

BryantSo right now we're really popular with, like, YC startups and treats and Speedrun startups, all the way... so really, like, early-stage startups, all the way to, like, scale-ups and growth-stage companies like Clay. So, you know, they'll come to Ploy to solve either a plethora of different things that they didn't have time to go and solve for, or they're going to go and solve for a very specific use case, like account-based marketing, or building a lead-gen magnet tool. And these are all things that are possible with Ploy, because, similar to a vibe coding platform where you can build anything you want, Ploy is, like, truly enterprise-grade. You can create really, really high-fidelity brand design systems that adhere to your brand. And from there, the velocity of what you can actually build, and most importantly, the outcomes that you can get, you know, are pretty incomparable to anything else.Link

LubaSo it sounds like with Ploy, I can get consistency of my brand assets across the board. I can also have a much more systemized way to actually track the experiments, track the pages, track the ads, like, track everything that is being done by the marketing team. And most likely, if I'm an early-stage startup, I don't really have a marketing team. I just need something simple in one place.Link

BryantSo that's exactly why I built Ploy. My frustration of trying to build this marketing team at Webflow, with the data stack, making sure the data all lined up. You know, every single company at a certain point of scale has to do all that. I was like, well, I just want to do that for all startups, so that they don't have to go through that pain. But most importantly, be able to give them an agentic capability, so that they don't have to drive it themselves. And that's what Ploy is. It's like all these batteries are included. You get analytics, you get memory, you get a database, you get everything that is needed to make sure that you can not just run your campaign, but you can measure the outcomes and the results.Link

LubaAnd why not build this within Webflow?Link

BryantGreat question. You know, Webflow is a great company. They're definitely on this sort of enterprise path. I care about startups. Like, I'm a startup person. This is my third startup. My community of founders live in San Francisco. My friends are founders. And, you know, when I was thinking about what I wanted to do next, this kind of was just, like, the natural thing for me to do. First company was in adtech. Second company was in websites. I had built and led growth and marketing teams. So this is kind of, like, my, I don't know, magnum opus of sorts. Like, this is what my life has sort of led to, which is, this is my life's work.Link

LubaNow, I just want to point out that for someone who was a CTO for 13 years, you are so articulate and so well-spoken and have your pitch down. So it makes sense that you wanted to lead a company as well.Link

BryantYou know what? I will have to share that when I was a freshman in high school, my very first class, first-period class in high school, was speech and debate. And I was so nervous. The teacher asked me to read this passage from Franklin Roosevelt, and I was just, like, sweating bullets, because I was just so afraid of public speaking. So now that I, like, think about where I came from and where I'm at, you know, I'm sort of like, hey, I guess I'm okay at it. But at the same time, you know, I think when you're speaking about something that you're just really passionate about, and it's, like, from your heart, you know, it's much, much easier.Link

LubaSo coming back to that journey at Webflow. 13 years, right, you were there?Link

BryantYeah.Link

LubaAt which point were you starting to think that, hey, you know, how long do I really want to be building this specific company?Link

BryantWell, I don't think it was necessarily about the length of time, because, you know, at a certain point at Webflow, I always thought that Webflow would be my last company as well. But, you know, when there are certain opportunities, and, you know, certain platform shifts like AI that just really change everything about what your business does, or your set of experiences... I'm just ultimately, like, a learner. I like to be in uncomfortable environments where I'm learning new things, trying new things out.Link

And I think when it came to, like, okay, what am I going to do next, I just really wanted to build an AI-native company with AI-native products. Like, I just felt like my entire career, 20-plus years, you know, interning at Symantec in 2003 all the way to today, you know, it was just like I spent my whole period building, you know, software. And for me to not try and build AI-native products at this point is just simply irresistible.Link

LubaSo take me to that period when you seriously started thinking about leaving, and what's next.Link

BryantYou know what, in typical fashion, I just trusted my instincts. I was just like... it's not typical. I literally just, like, trusted my instincts. And I think I decided in a period of a day.Link

LubaWow.Link

BryantTo do this. Yeah.Link

LubaWait. You have to say more. What was that day? What happened? Why was that the day of the decision?Link

BryantI think, like, I had been maybe languishing at my previous company. I wasn't necessarily super happy with my particular role. I wasn't...Link

LubaAnd what was your role at the time? Were you running the marketing too, or...Link

BryantI was running our Webflow Labs, which is our incubation division, and I had the opportunity to work with great people, building really cool products. But, you know, it's a larger company, right? And for me, I'm just a startup guy. I'm just a startup guy that somehow made it 13 years.Link

LubaSo you must have been languishing for a while.Link

BryantYou know, like, I think towards the tail end, you know, we definitely got to a point where it was really fun to kind of build these smaller products at Webflow Labs. But for me, it was just like, ultimately, hey, who am I? What am I here to do? Do I actually feel like I have the capability to really change an industry at this particular juncture of the platform shift of AI? And, like, the answer was really simple. I was like, yes. Like, I actually do want to do this. I actually want to commit to the next several years, decade-plus, to building this particular company, because, like, I just honestly really care. And if I'm at an organization that doesn't let me channel that effectively, then it's time to move on.Link

LubaDo you think there would have been a path, if you really pushed, for you to channel that at Webflow? Webflow Labs, or not so much? It was too mature for that?Link

BryantIt was. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a great and fantastic company. I love everyone there still. I'm still very close to my co-founders. But they're very much on the path to enterprise growth right there. They've hit that point in the cycle where that's where, you know, the next phase of growth is going to come from. And they have a great leadership team, from EPD to the go-to-market team, to really focus on that particular strategic shift.Link

For me, it's just like, well, I care about that. I want to see the company succeed. But at the same time, it's just not necessarily the product arena that I really want to focus on. I really want to focus on helping the smaller guys. I really want to focus on the startup founders, because, you know, there's nothing more amazing than the spirit of entrepreneurship, in my opinion.Link

LubaAnd you mentioned that for you, in answering those questions of, can I do this again, how am I feeling, can I channel this interest within the bigger organization, you decided to make a decision to leave and start Ploy. What I'm curious about is, what is that thinking process looking like for you? Do you sit down and journal? Do you talk to people? Are you just, like, an intuition guy? Make a decision?Link

BryantI literally, it was just intuition. It was just, I looked at what was out there, I looked at what I wanted to do, and then I also approached it from very first principles, like, from a technical and a product perspective. And I was like, well, if there's anyone that's going to build this type of company the way I envision it, it's got to be me. It's got to be me.Link

LubaWhy?Link

BryantWhy? Because I just have a very particular thesis about, you know, the importance of a website. First and foremost, I have an important thesis around what's going to take the website to become the most important asset for a business in the age of AI. And my entire thesis is, it's not just, like, having a beautiful website. But if you imbue the website with the intelligence of models, and you supply it all these different data sources about who's coming to your website, what are they doing with the website, what campaigns are working, what copy is resonating... These are all just things that the agents can help an entrepreneur, or business proprietor, or head of marketing, CMO and founder, to be able to create the self-reinforcement loop in the website that can help a business grow.Link

And for me, it was just, like, a very clear vision for how this platform could come about, and also how many different companies I would be able to positively influence with it. You know, I really want to go after the 99% of websites that aren't on Webflow, because I truly think that, you know, they have true potential to use Ploy to help them grow their business.Link

LubaAnd how is this website-as-the-center-of-a-company-universe thesis different than other theses? Is that the word, the plural of thesis? Yeah. Theses. That other people in the industry have.Link

BryantSo agents and assistants are all the rage right now, right? Like, everything from Crock-Pot to instinct, you know.Link

LubaWhich one are you on?Link

BryantI use all of them. I use instinct, I use all of them. And the thing is, there's no agent that lives in my website. You can stitch together some things, you can plug them up to analytics, but it still requires this understanding of how marketing works, and how data works, and how instrumentation works. Like, literally, when you're using Ploy, we help you set all of that up. So, you know, once that is set up, it can become this living, breathing thing that turns your website into your hardest-working employee. And that's something that, you know, we're really just building out right now, and it's going to become way, way better. But, you know, there's really that positioning of your website being this employee that works for you while you sleep. That is, like, something that, in my opinion, is not just unique, but it's also distinctively powerful.Link

LubaWell, okay. Let's go back to your decision to leave. So you decide to leave. Was there anything that you were insecure about at all? Because obviously, I know you like leaning into that, from what I've seen. You're a 40-year-old, or 41-year-old... 40-year-old founder. There's a lot of 20-year-olds running around there, AI-native. You were doing this again. Were you like, do I still have it in me?Link

BryantI'm scared shitless, to be honest, because these new founders are so crazy. They're so cracked. I am learning so many things. And that's actually what led to the decision for me to do YC again, right? I wasn't going to do YC. YC ended up being our lead investor.Link

LubaWait, why were you not going to do YC? Because you were like, oh, you know, it's going to be so easy for me to raise the round, and...Link

BryantYeah, exactly. And it was just like, okay, like, what am I going to get? But then, you know, when Garry Tan asked me, he's like, Bryant, do you want to do YC again? I was like, wait, actually, I think I do. Because, first of all, the way you build companies in 2013 is definitely not the way you build companies in 2026.Link

LubaAnd just for someone listening, paint me a picture in simple terms. What was it like to build companies in 2013, and what is it like to build companies now?Link

BryantSo in 2013, I feel like you had to have an extremely dense founding team that was super capable across every single discipline. And the reason why Webflow was successful, in my opinion, was because between Vlad, Sergie and myself, we covered every single base, and we were able to, like, just work ourselves to success. And we did that with a combination of, like, technical background and experience, with design, with product intuition, with commercial and strategic intuition.Link

But then now, you know, technically, those skills, that level of intelligence, is kind of commodity. You don't need to learn how to code. You don't need to be an expert programmer. You don't need to have expert design chops. Of course, like, taste is still a big, big factor. And I don't think the best companies are just going to be vibe-coded into existence. But I do think that you had to have that really, really strong founding team, combined with a really big and audacious vision, with just, like, the ability to execute. So that was 2013. You had to, like, have everything sort of work.Link

In 2026, there's probably hundreds or thousands of new startups starting every single day. You know, YC has, like, 200-plus companies a batch, and there's four batches a year. So now, what does it take to actually build a successful and enduring company? I actually think it's a combination of taking on a very large market with a very audacious vision. You have to continue on your ability to execute. You also have to be very, very astute about what decisions you need to make. You have to figure out, all right, which ones are my one-way door decisions, and we have to spend a lot of time working on that. Which are the decisions that are reversible, that we can actually just, you know, try and then revisit?Link

So those are things that, you know, are just, like, a completely different set of events from, you know, 13 years ago. And I think, like, now in 2026, you just have to be very, very clear-eyed about, okay, everyone has access to intelligence. It's really about what you do with it. And I think that's a very different mental framing.Link

LubaBut given what you said, because you said you need to have a really great ability to execute, you also need to have strong decision-making, the ability to recognize a one-way door decision and a two-way door decision. That still comes down to great people on the team.Link

BryantYes.Link

LubaSo you still have to have a strong founding team.Link

BryantYou still do. You still do. And I would say that right now, you know, just because the barrier of entry to coding has been completely removed, like, now it's really about, okay, you can code, but what does good code look like, right? Like, how do you actually use the models effectively? So I think, like, you know, this has been well said already, but, like, the best engineers now are the ones that know how to leverage agents.Link

LubaSo you decide to do YC. What exactly was the decision to do YC? Obviously Garry Tan approached you, but what was in your head? Like, why was it beneficial?Link

BryantSo I'm 40. This is my third company. Like, everything is different. I think to do YC again means that you're going to go back to the school of innovation. And YC is the definition of innovation, where everyone is rethinking what it means to build an AI-native company. Everyone is rethinking how to grow a company. Everyone is rethinking how to build a product for agents. Everyone is sort of, like, living two or three years in the future, so that if you're not going to be in that environment, but you're trying to build for the future, you're inherently at a disadvantage, in my opinion.Link

So I just think that for me to be successful, I want to be where my customers are. I want to sell to startups. I want to help startups grow. And I also wanted to learn, like, how the next generation of founders operate, what they care about. So for me, this is a really funny story. Like, I met a 17-year-old founder at YC.Link

LubaWhat are they building?Link

BryantAnd it's a company called Aspire. I forget what it is. Shout out. And this person was just, like, okay, this is how I prompt models, and boom, boom, boom. Just, like, seeing how they prompt differently. Seeing how they never sign up for SaaS tools. Everything is agents. Everything is through MCP. Everything's from Claude Code or Codex. It was just like, okay, this is really interesting, because, like, the previous paradigm for how people use software, how I built software for them, doesn't apply. So now you have to think about, okay, what does this mean for your business model? What does this mean for pricing and packaging? How do we, like, actually build the right business for tomorrow's businesses?Link

LubaSo YC has already finished up for you. How did you actually learn all those things about other founders? Because there are events, right? But did you go to the co-working space? Obviously, you also have two kids, so you've got to manage your time differently than a 17-year-old. What did that look like for you?Link

BryantWell, I had to pick my moments. So, you know, a funny story I'll share with you is that I was at my son's, like, final baseball game of the year. And, you know, just, like, an hour before the baseball game, I get a text message from the YC partner, and he was like, hey, do you want to come demo Ploy? We're doing a launch live event for all of the batch and alumni founders. I was like, oh, shoot, I'm at a baseball game. I need to go change my shirt. I was like, oh, screw it, I'm just going to go show up. I take an Uber, show up at YC, rip open the laptop, and with no prep, I did this entire demo for Ploy in front of an audience for the very first time. And I did it cold.Link

And I was really worried, because I was just like, first of all, these were very discerning, super-AI-pilled founders. I thought they were going to, like, you know, give me... Your products and your demo. But, you know, first of all, that was a great experience, because I did get some good feedback. I did get some great constructive feedback. But, you know, I think just that community of, like, everyone wanting to help each other, I just think that there is no better network for finding self-improvement, to build a great startup, to understand the best technologies, and then also to just surround yourself with this community. Like, I think there's nothing else like it. So for me, it was just an incredibly rewarding experience to do it again for the second time, 13 years later. Highly recommend.Link

LubaGreat reference for your life. What was that conversation like at home for you, deciding to do another startup?Link

BryantMy wife... okay, so the conversation didn't happen. So my wife was actually traveling, and she was at New York Climate Week. She does climate investing. And, you know, she comes home...Link

LubaOh, you guys are a great pairing.Link

BryantLike, I come home, and I was like, hey, babe, I decided to leave. And she's like, what? I was like, yeah, I'm going to start a new company. She's like, okay. And I love her to death. I mean, she's just so supportive. She just understood that, you know, it was my time, right? And she's just been really supportive ever since. The kids have been really supportive. And a big part of starting a new company was actually to show my kids that, hey, when life gives you these opportunities, and if you have this passion to go and do something that's really hard and really rewarding, you have to go do it.Link

LubaSo I had a brief moment interacting with your lovely wife right before we started this interview, and she shared with me that you have this grit and fire inside of you. And even though a lot of founders have that, you have that in every area of your life, and you're just able to drive a project, an idea that you're excited about, and also focus on it ruthlessly. So bringing it back to your background and really who you are, where does that come from?Link

BryantYou know, I think I have to credit my upbringing, I guess, and my genes, right? Like, I think I just grew up in an environment where I had to be very independent. I had to figure out a lot of things on my own.Link

LubaTell me more. What was that environment?Link

BryantYou know, everything as simple as, like, not having a summer program or summer school to go to. I would just stay home, right? Starting when I was in, like, first grade, both of my parents worked. I cooked my own lunch. I had to figure out what to do. We didn't have cable TV, right? So, you know, what would I do? I don't know. I'd make slingshots in the backyard, or I would read, or I would, you know, like, watch Jerry Springer until my eyes bled. So it was just, like, doing all these really, you know, strange things that, you know, a kid would have to do. And actually, that's one of the things, is that, like, I learned how to be bored, and I learned how to just be really creative.Link

My grandfather was also just, like, the definition of resilience. Like, he got on a boat when he was eight years old to go to Japan for the first time, because that's what the men in the family did.Link

LubaAt eight years old?Link

BryantEight years old.Link

LubaWell, obviously we have to hear more about this.Link

BryantMy grandfather. Okay. How much time have we got? Because this is a big story.Link

LubaWe've got time. We've got time for a big story.Link

BryantAll right. This is a big story. I mean, I've never really shared this before, but, you know, my grandfather is, like, probably my life's biggest inspiration. He passed away, unfortunately, last year.Link

LubaOh. I'm sorry.Link

BryantSo he was eight years old. He was living in Taiwan, and his family actually owned a bunch of land in Taiwan. And at the time, Taiwan was under Japanese rule. And as part of the tradition, the family would send all the boys to go to school in Japan. So when he was eight years old, he got on a boat by himself, showed up in Tokyo, didn't speak any Japanese. And he ended up spending the next ten years there. And as, like, a darker-skinned person, so he's, like, the same skin color as me, to be in a very sort of, like, society like Japan at the time, the 1930s, you know, he was picked on a lot. And he essentially sort of, like, broke through all that. You know, he became very, you know, sort of special at judo and kendo.Link

He eventually came home ten years later, and that was around the time of World War II. And during that time, the Nationalist Party of China, under Chiang Kai-shek, brought his entire army, 2 million people, to Taiwan, as part of their escape from the Communist Party, from Mao Zedong, who were chasing them off the mainland. And my grandfather was part of the student rebellion. So he would lead the student rebellions of the native Taiwanese against this incoming army that was taking over everything.Link

LubaAnd what was his belief at the time, which I'm sure he probably shared with you?Link

BryantI think he also just really cared about, you know, his identity of being Taiwanese. And he just inherently felt like it was wrong for this army to just show up and take everyone's land, you know, take over businesses, and change, like, the fabric of that island's landscape. So he was put on a wanted list, and essentially he became a fugitive for over a year. He was living in the mountains, to, like, hunt and kill snakes, catch dogs.Link

LubaHow old was he at the time?Link

BryantHe was probably 20. Yeah. And he had to essentially survive, you know, on his own. And he only turned himself in when he saw a poster with his mother's name on it that said, hey, if you don't turn yourself in, we will kill your mother.Link

LubaOh.Link

BryantAnd after that, he turned himself in, and he was tortured for three days.Link

LubaOh my God.Link

BryantLeft for dead. And he somehow survived that.Link

LubaAnd did you ever ask him how he survived that? Like, what was going on through his mind?Link

BryantWell, the funniest thing was that he was actually left for dead. He was dragged into the morgue, and they thought he was dead. He had been waterboarded and beaten for three days.Link

LubaOh my God.Link

BryantAnd he essentially was left for dead. As they were pulling another dead body into the morgue, he came to himself. He reached out, and he touched the pant leg of a soldier and scared the shit out of him. And they realized that he was still alive, picked him up, and started beating him again. But eventually he was released, because his mother posted bail, or ransom, or whatever it was. And, you know, essentially, his mother forfeited all of the family's gold and land to the government to get him out of jail.Link

LubaOh my God.Link

BryantAnd yeah, it was, honestly, like, a really traumatic experience for the family. But he essentially spent the rest of his life trying to bring the family back. So he started businesses. They didn't really go anywhere.Link

LubaAnd which territory was this on?Link

BryantThis is still in Taiwan.Link

LubaTaiwan. Okay.Link

BryantRight. And, you know, the family has always had this very traumatic relationship with money and wealth.Link

LubaBecause they lost a lot.Link

BryantA lot got taken away. Yeah. And around ten years ago, you know, my grandfather, every time I'd go visit him... So he was in Taiwan, but then he immigrated to the US. Every time I would see him and go visit him down in San Jose, he would always say, hey, Bryant, how are you? How's your company? I'm like, oh, it's good. How many people do you have now? It's like, oh, 20. And it's like, okay, cool, keep going. And then I visited him the next year. He was like, okay, Bryant, how are you? How many people do you have? I'd say, like, oh, we have, like, 40. Next year it's, like, 100. Keep going, Bryant. Keep going.Link

And actually, exactly a year ago, which is when he passed away, I visited him two weeks before he passed away. He had Alzheimer's and dementia, but he still remembered me. He remembered my face, and still remembered I had a company. And he said, Bryant, how are you? How many people, you know, work at your company now? I was like, oh, I think maybe, like, 800. And he goes, like, oh. And then he died two weeks later. But I could just see how proud he was.Link

LubaWow.Link

BryantHe was like, my mission is accomplished. My grandson is carrying on. And he just had this, you know, look on his face, and he was just so proud. And, you know, I never started companies to make money, but that was such a gratifying experience for me, because I could just tell, before he passed away, that this was actually a really big deal for him. And that my success, he lived through it.Link

And I think, you know, just based off of all the stories he would tell me when I was growing up, you know, maybe they were a bit macho at the time, right? He'd be like, Bryant, you know, be strong, whatever. Maybe not as PC. But, like, at least it left a really strong impression on me, because he was my hero. You know, like, the things that he did, the amount of suffering that he was able to overcome, made everything that I experienced in my life just feel so minuscule in comparison. So, you know, like my wife said, I really do feel like I could suffer through anything, because, relative to other people in my family that have dealt with a lot of suffering, like from wars... I don't know if your family history also has similar things, but it's really put things in perspective.Link

LubaPerspective. Wow, what a story. Thank you so much for sharing.Link

BryantDidn't know if we were going to go there.Link

LubaWell, we did. Well, one thing that you mentioned is your family always had this complicated relationship with money, and there was a lot of that scarcity mindset, because money was there and then it got taken away. And actually, in my research, I heard you say once that you always had a scarcity mentality in your life as well. Tell me a bit more about it.Link

BryantI have a little brother, and ever since I was really small, I've wanted a little brother. And, you know, I have a great relationship with him, but he's also disabled. And when, you know, I was seven years old, I learned that he was disabled. You know, I was like, oh, shoot. You know, I'm not necessarily going to have, like, the brother that I always imagined that I would have.Link

LubaAnd if you don't mind me asking, how disabled, broadly speaking?Link

BryantYou know, he can hold a very simple job. He works at T.J. Maxx. But he's never going to drive a car. He's never going to get married. He's never going to have kids. But, you know, he's pretty self-independent. And, you know, for me, you know, around the time when I was, like, probably in my early 20s, I was like, wow, I actually have so many opportunities, so many gifts. So I can drive a car, I can have a girlfriend, I can go travel on my own, I can go and hold down a steady job.Link

And to me, it wasn't necessarily scarcity, but it's definitely, I feel like I have opportunity, and there's a lot of people in this world that don't have opportunity. So one of, like, my biggest pet peeves is, like, not capturing opportunity, because I feel like opportunity is truly God's gift. It's like abundance. It's the ability to have something that other people don't, in a lot of cases. So because, you know, maybe with my relationship with my brother, and me seeing him grow up and go through his journey, I just feel like, hey, I do have so many opportunities. I have to go and, you know, take advantage of them. I have to go and experience them.Link

LubaBut why did that translate into a scarcity mentality, versus that gratitude and abundance?Link

BryantI think it's just knowing that, you know, I just feel like life is so finite. You know, I just feel like we have such limited time on this earth. And for some reason, I think ever since I was in my early 20s, I just had this very healthy fear of death and how finite life is. So, you know, when my wife talks about, like, oh my God, Bryant's going to go wing foiling after he worked a 14-hour day, I was like, well, it's because, like, I feel like you've got to maximize every hour of the day. And if it's nice out, it's good weather, like, you can actually go and experience life at its fullest. So I really think that, you know, the life we live is very scarce. We have very limited time on this earth, and we can actually just go and experience more and more of it.Link

LubaSo it's more so scarcity that shows up as maximizing the potential of your life and maximizing the potential of your days, and really getting the most out of every hour.Link

BryantTotally. 100%.Link

LubaAre there any unhealthy ways it shows up in your life?Link

BryantProbably, yes. I don't know. Like, I think sometimes maybe I could slow down. Maybe sometimes, especially as I've gotten older. Like, I don't think I have the same amount of energy that I used to. So I very much feel like I'm entering a stage of my life where I'm, like, much more reflective. I'm much less trying to, like, run after the next thing or do the next thing. You know, at this point in my life, it's my family, Ploy, and maybe a hobby, right? And, you know, right now, it's giving me a lot of fulfillment. So I don't think I have any vices. I don't think I am, like, falling down any unhealthy traps. I do wish I had more time to work out. I do wish I had more time to see friends. But, you know, there will be a time in my life for that as well.Link

LubaHow does all of that pair with the fact that there is such a race when it comes to AI, and startups that are being started in the space?Link

BryantI think about that a lot. You know, there's a lot of FOMO in San Francisco. There's a lot of, like, 996. There's a lot of this. And to be honest, I feel it, because, you know, if I am not firing off a long-running agent to go build something or to sell something, you know, I feel behind, because someone else is doing so. I think I rationalize this with, hey, I just have conviction that what I'm trying to do is really important, and I'm going to show up in a really authentic way with customers. I'm going to show up in a really authentic way and try to really, like, focus on what really matters, and just try and create an experience that's like, hey, I don't want to get caught in this rat race.Link

You know, I wouldn't do this if I felt like I was in a rat race. Sometimes I feel it, but I actually have to continually remind myself that, like, hey, when you're trying to build a platform and a company and a product that is as expansive as Ploy, and there's millions, literally millions, of potential customers, I have to think about the long game. So I have to think about my own longevity at Ploy. I have to think about my employees' health and happiness, right? So I actively try to give refresh days. I actively try to think of ways that I could really just make sure that we're set up for the long haul.Link

LubaYeah, I do wonder what's going to happen with our relationship with pure productivity and man-hours, and retreating more to ourselves and our intuitions. Especially here, as you said, in San Francisco, it's such a rat race. Everyone's out trying to outwork everyone else. But then there is something to be said for, for you, for instance, having all the experience that you amassed with Webflow, and working with the customers that you worked with, also understanding and knowing yourself and what works for you. But I am curious what the rat race is going to become, because from the outside, it really feels like if you're not working, you're definitely not going to make it. And you've got to maximize every waking and non-waking hour to really build something and be able to compete.Link

BryantYeah, I think this is where I think it's good for operators and founders to just have more diverse points of view about the world, because we are in a bubble here. You know, like, I recently did a fantasy football draft with my high school friends, and they, you know...Link

LubaYou do have some time for friends.Link

BryantYou know, 20 minutes every week. But, you know, like, there are people that are our age, that live all over the world, all over the US, and they've never heard of an AI assistant. They literally think AI is Google, when they type in the Chrome bar, and that is AI. But it's not this assistant. It's definitely not that assistant.Link

So in, like, the X bubble, in the LinkedIn bubble, you know, it's very, very easy to get caught up in it. But I think, like, with how transformational AI is, and just how large and diverse these markets are, there's time to figure it out. And of course there's first-mover advantage. Of course, companies in Cursor's space, you know, they're moving incredibly fast, because in certain markets you do have to operate with that level of, like, urgency, right? Like coding, it is such an incredibly competitive market. But for me, you know, I'm trying to sell to heads of marketing at large tech companies, but I'm also trying to sell to large, you know, home services companies, right? And large agencies. Like, these are people that...Link

LubaI thought you were mainly selling to startups right now.Link

BryantYeah. Those are the main sort of focus areas, like tech-enabled startups. But, you know, we also have solopreneurs. We also have private jet brokers. We also have, you know, like, there's so many different types of companies that are coming to Ploy. And I actually am always just really impressed by, you know, the types of products and companies that people are coming to us for, because I simply didn't expect it. But that's also just the beauty of AI. Like, you can create a self-serve product, you can create a bottoms-up product now, and it has that type of potential.Link

LubaWhat did you have to unlearn, coming from a big organization?Link

BryantI think it's actually more about, like, what did I have to relearn?Link

LubaWhat did you have to relearn?Link

BryantI had to relearn that it's okay to be in founder mode again. You know, like, founder mode is essentially trusting your instincts, you know, being a beacon of stability to your employees. Not worrying about, hey, am I going to hurt this leader's feelings if I roll out this change? Not worrying about, hey, do I need to make sure that everyone is on the meeting invite? And now it's just like, hey, we're zero to one.Link

LubaAnd how many people are you guys right now?Link

BryantWe're around 20.Link

LubaYeah, pretty big already.Link

BryantYeah, yeah.Link

LubaWow. How did you hire so quickly?Link

BryantYou know, it was just, like, great referrals. You know, just making sure that...Link

LubaBut there's so much competition for talent. Why do people want to work with you at Ploy? Repeat founder status?Link

BryantI don't know. I think, like, I think there's a lot of folks that either have this, like, shared vision that I have. There's people that really want to just build AI engineering. There's people that, you know... there are certain roles where there's a lot of competition. But, you know, I'm here to build a company that is enduring, right? So we're not working 996. We put in a lot of hours, you know, 60 hours, but we're not in the office six days a week for 12 hours.Link

LubaSo what are the hours?Link

BryantI work a lot still. That's the truth. Yeah. I went to bed pretty late, to be honest.Link

LubaDo you get enough sleep?Link

BryantWell, I took a little nap before.Link

LubaOkay.Link

BryantBefore you came over. But, you know, I also do it because I love it. And there's, you know, folks at the company that have other responsibilities. It's totally fine, you know. But, you know, it's also mostly made up of folks at the company that really want to build and work on this problem.Link

LubaYeah. One of the things that our mutual friend Eric Bahn from Hustle Fund, shout out Eric, said is that you're kind and ruthless at the same time. And he's curious, how does that show up when you're building this new team?Link

BryantI wouldn't describe it as ruthlessness. I would just describe it as, I'm just speaking truth, right? Like, I think that what we have to do is, you know, first of all, trust everyone at the company, that they have, you know, the company's best interests at heart. But people have to know what the company's best interests are. And maybe this is my communication style, but I just think that you have to be extremely clear about what's actually super, super important. What are the P0s of the company? You can only have one or two, right? Everything else, you know, you just choose to not really mention, even if you care about them. But what you have to do as a founder and CEO is you just have to say, like, out loud, repeatedly, especially at a company that's, like, now 20, like, what are the most important things?Link

LubaAnd what does that look like in practice? How many times do you remind people about the P0s?Link

BryantI have a ritual where, Sunday night, I prep a message, so that when people wake up on Monday morning, the first thing that they see in Slack is my message. And I reiterate how I feel about the business, where we're at in the business, what I'm optimistic about, what are the green shoots in the business, but then also what I'm worried about. And I choose to work with employees that have a lot of agency, and I want them to have a lot of ownership.Link

LubaHow do you screen for that?Link

BryantWell, you can screen for that in a lot of different ways. You can ask them questions like, hey, what's something that you built from beginning to end that you're really proud of? Or what's, like, the hardest thing you ever worked on? You can kind of get a sense for just, like, hey, how audacious is this person? You know, how well can this person think for themselves, and not just be a lemming and just, like, follow someone else, right? So those are things that are really important, because we're trying to build this, like, super broad platform and company, and I'm going to need people that can flex across a variety of roles. So, you know, I need my engineers to be the mini-CTOs of their domain. And I'm very upfront about that. I'm like, hey, I need you to really own the breadth here. I need you to think about the entire lifecycle of this product.Link

LubaYou started the company solo, correct?Link

BryantYeah, started this solo. I also now have two different co-founders, one that helps me run the engineering team.Link

LubaOh, interesting. So you hired or found co-founders afterwards?Link

BryantYeah. Yeah, yeah. And then I also have a head of growth. His name is Will, in New York.Link

LubaAt which point did you find the co-founders?Link

BryantI would say, like, four months after. Three months after. You know, I think, like, for what I'm trying to do, you know, I want to be able to have these people play roles of very high leverage. I want them to internally and externally reflect their particular role. And I think, like, having that co-founder title is really important, and I want to give them that responsibility.Link

LubaHow did you pick the two people? Was it a recruiting process, or did you already know them from the past?Link

BryantOne, I actually went to grade school, middle school and high school with.Link

LubaWow, okay.Link

BryantSo Ben was definitely the smartest person that I knew growing up, and he had wanted to work on a very similar idea to Ploy.Link

LubaAnd you guys have stayed in touch throughout this time?Link

BryantYeah, yeah, yeah. But we connected much more recently, actually.Link

LubaSo was it a thoughtful search process that you conducted, or...Link

BryantNo, it kind of just happened.Link

LubaYeah. I love when things just happen.Link

BryantIt kind of just happened. I was like, hey, like, what, are you going to start a company? It was just kind of like Spider-Man, like, you, you, you. And then, you know, so that worked out great. And then I met Will, our head of growth, who came in through a referral. You know, someone was like, hey, you've got to really talk to this guy. We hit it off. Loved his energy. Loved the way he approached things. And I was like, hey, I think you should run growth for us. So I think I have, like, two really strong folks that I can really rely on, that can help me scale from here.Link

LubaSo it sounds like, because you were starting this company on your own first, and you only found co-founders a few months in, you didn't necessarily have to go through, this is our vision for the company, the same, are we super aligned on values? Like, I'm sure you've done a version of it, but...Link

BryantYeah, I think, like, it was definitely a lot of dating, right? So we had a lot of, you know, conversations over the course of several days, to really make sure that, hey, the way we're thinking about things, the way we're thinking about the role, their responsibilities, like, it all sort of aligned. But fortunately, like, you know, at the end of the day, it really comes down to, can you communicate effectively with this person? And, you know, I think that with Ben and with Will, it was just really, really helpful to be able to have these very high-trust conversations.Link

LubaHow have you learned to communicate effectively over the years?Link

BryantStill working on that. However, you know, I think I've done a better job of being able to retain how direct I am while having empathy for the other person on the other side.Link

LubaWas that problematic at the beginning?Link

BryantI would say, yeah. You know, like, I would say, like, you know, for any, you know, 20-year-old founder, you know, I was still learning about myself. You know, first company, 25. Webflow, started at 27. I know, looking back, I still feel like I was a kid then. At this point in my journey, I have enough, like, self-awareness. I know, like, hey, this is who I am. And also, most importantly, this is how I want to show up in front of other people. So credit to my friends and family, my wife, for helping me sort of, like, grow in that respect. So yeah, I think, like, it's obviously a work in progress still, but I would like to think I've gotten better.Link

LubaAnd give me some examples of people who have built you up over the years, and in which way.Link

BryantYeah. My Webflow co-founders, Vlad and Sergie, were great influences on me.Link

LubaWhat have they taught you?Link

BryantYou know, Vlad taught me the value of kindness. You know, Vlad taught me...Link

LubaBut that sounds very broad. What does that mean?Link

BryantYeah, just, like, you know, you can be an effective leader while caring about the other person and showing that you care.Link

LubaThis reminds me of the difficult conversations framework, of being direct, kind, and honest.Link

BryantYes, yes. That is hard. You know, and I think, like, there's a fine balance between, you know, what is it, ruinous empathy and radical candor. So yeah. So, you know, he was an influence there. To be honest, it's just a lot of self-reflection. You know, I think feedback is always a gift. I take feedback pretty well now. Or I would like to think I take feedback well.Link

LubaDid you ever take feedback badly? Since you're saying "now."Link

BryantOh, yeah. You know, of course. Like, you know, when you're young and you have this, like, veneer of strength. You have this veneer of, like, self-assuredness. And I think a lot of leaders, a lot of founders, have that, because so many of us have imposter syndrome, right? And to get around that imposter syndrome, you have to, like, put on the cloak of assuredness. You have to put on the cloak of strength. And, you know, when that cloak of strength is pierced by feedback that you may not have wanted to hear, you know, you have to find ways of, like, building up that strength again, right? So I think now, like, I don't wear a heavy cloak of assuredness anymore. I welcome that feedback in, because I just think I've gotten to a place, mentally and personally, where I'm very self-aware of my shortcomings, and I'm actively working on them. And there's just, like, nothing I can really do other than solicit that feedback from people.Link

LubaWhat are some stories from the Webflow days that really helped you build yourself up?Link

BryantYou know, I think it was very, very difficult to be an operator and leader at a company during COVID. And it was doubly difficult because I had two kids under two that were recently born, in lockdowns, during COVID. And I was running an engineering team, a data team, and also our marketing team. So that was, like, the biggest pressure cooker, literally, inside of our apartment, where we couldn't even open the windows because there were fires in San Francisco. Because, you know, I had to field all sorts of crazy employee complaints. A lot of drama within the org. And it was just, like, really, really hard.Link

So I actually think that, okay, shoot, I actually got through that. I can actually just, like, be so clear-eyed about leadership in general, and what it means to have, like, a healthy organization. So at this point, like, I have zero tolerance for people that aren't on your team, that aren't rowing in the same direction as you. And, you know, if you're not trying to help, you know, row in the same direction, you should be getting off the boat. You have to get off the boat. And that's just a lesson that I didn't learn until much later.Link

LubaAnd how did you come back from this period during COVID? How did you survive that?Link

BryantA lot of wine at night after work, I don't know. You know, gummies. Like, I don't know, like, you had to...Link

LubaYeah. You had to figure out ways to kind of cope.Link

BryantTo cope with it, to work through it. Yeah.Link

LubaYou talk a lot about self-reflection and self-awareness. What are the specific tools you use to reflect?Link

BryantI am not very good at journaling. However, I do feel like I have, like, a pretty good internal sense for, like, my own situation, and, like, where my own mental state is. So if I catch myself going down a very negative train of thought...Link

LubaHave you always had this self-awareness, or was it learned?Link

BryantI think I've always had this self-awareness. Yeah, I think it was just, like, a consequence of being bored a lot, I don't know.Link

LubaThat's true.Link

BryantYou know, like, I think, like, I spent weeks at a time in the summers sitting at home. I don't know, I just think, like, I've always had this, like, mental rumination always going. And it was just always this engine that would just keep running. So I think I've always had that very, like, innately curious ability, and just, like, a very reflective, like, conscience.Link

LubaSo you just think on your own.Link

BryantYeah. Sometimes I go through periods where I journal, but it's not a habit that I'm very automatically drawn to.Link

LubaMy recent trial at journaling has been, like, voice-to-text reflection on my days, and then Claude analyzing patterns, and then telling me if I'm doing well or not so well on something. So that's been good, because I'm more of a voice person. But you just, like, sit there, think, analyze your situation and plan.Link

BryantApparently that is the number one, like, use of tokens, like, after coding, which is AI therapists, you know. It's just so good. I just, like, talking to it...Link

LubaSo that's the thing that I don't actually do. I just, like, voice-to-text my own day on, like, a note. And then I have a folder where all the notes are. And if I want to prompt Claude about, like, okay, analyze all of this, that's what I do. But I don't, like, actively talk back and forth to it.Link

BryantOkay. Got it.Link

LubaIs this something you've experimented with?Link

BryantI've experimented with AI with a bunch of different things, but not therapy. Yeah, yeah. I think now it's at a point where it's not very concerning. It's not, like, OpenClaw circa January 2026. I feel like we're, like, a year removed from that now. And the thing is that they're only going to get better. Models have web browsing capabilities.Link

LubaDid you set up Muse?Link

BryantI haven't set up Muse, but it's also because I already have, like, three others.Link

LubaYeah, yeah. Are there certain things you give to certain assistants, or is it kind of, like...Link

BryantWhichever is handy. Whichever is handy. So, like, for, I don't know, personal things, I use instinct. You know, so, like, for example, I still haven't seen *The Odyssey* yet, so...Link

LubaIt's hard to get tickets.Link

BryantBut, you know, instinct found me tickets.Link

LubaThat's awesome.Link

BryantI use Crock-Pot to help me sort through my email and flag emails that I should really care about, which I should respond to. So, like, you know, right now it's pretty rudimentary. Oh, one thing that it did do is, my wife and I are going to New York this weekend.Link

LubaOh, fun.Link

BryantAnd I was like, hey, I need a restaurant reservation. And it's really good at that.Link

LubaYeah. Where are you guys going? For reservations.Link

BryantNo Sue.Link

LubaNo Sue. Okay.Link

BryantHaven't had it before, but...Link

LubaAre you guys going with the kids or without the kids?Link

BryantWithout.Link

LubaHow often do you set aside time to have just the two of you?Link

BryantProbably once or twice a year.Link

LubaOh. That's fun. Nice. Do you feel like that's enough, or what's your recommendation for...Link

BryantI would like more. Founders, I would say once a quarter. Like, if you could get away for a weekend, it would be nice.Link

LubaAnd what's preventing you from getting away? Is it hiring a nanny?Link

BryantI just think that right now, with where our kids are at, I just want to spend every single moment with them. They're six and eight. They're super fun. You know, they like to ride bikes. They like to go swimming. I can play tennis with them. So it's just like, hey, all the things that I love to do, they're starting to like to do. So I prefer to hang out with my kids. And it's also just a very finite point in time, you know, just like...Link

LubaThat's what everyone says. Like, six and eight for so long. But then, until when do you think is the point where you're always reminding yourself that they're only going to be this age for this long?Link

BryantNo, I don't know. It's going to be tough. You know, I know, probably when my daughter goes off to college, right? That'll be a pretty...Link

LubaIt's a long time.Link

BryantPretty tough year. Yeah, ten years, though. You know.Link

LubaYeah. I was just interviewing someone whose daughter just went off to college, and we actually were doing a recording, I think, a day after the sendoff.Link

BryantHis eyes were still red.Link

LubaYeah. Yeah, he was, you know, he was being very stoic about it, but he was like, yeah, definitely very sad about it, because she was obviously such a big part of his life, and him and his wife's life.Link

BryantIt's so huge. Yeah.Link

LubaYeah. So coming back to Ploy, what are you trying to prove to yourself this time around?Link

BryantThat's a good one. I don't know. I hate to admit it, but I do think that there is a bit of a redemption here, because I really wanted to see Webflow evolve into this company that is, you know, similar to Ploy. But, you know, for a variety of reasons, you know, most of them good, that wasn't going to happen. So for me, I just really think that distinction exists, and I would love to work on it. So it's not that I want to prove something to myself. It's that I want to play this game. I want to build an AI-native company to solve this particular problem for all these businesses out there. And I just think it's, like, a game worth playing, because if I'm successful, these businesses will be successful.Link

And that's something that I want to carry to my deathbed. I want to, again, tap into this healthy fear of my mortality, and really think, just, like, well, was my life well lived? Did I leave the world a better place? Was I able to positively inflect the life of at least one other person? And I really think that Ploy has tremendous potential.Link

LubaAnd why is it specifically the zero-to-one entrepreneurs, or small business owners, that you are so, so excited about? Like, what about that customer fires you up?Link

BryantBecause I see myself in them. Because I see myself in them, in the sense that, like, these are people that have taken on enormous personal, professional risk. They're like, hey, I'm going to go and commit many, many hours, many, many days, a lot of effort and energy to creating this company. And I just want to be a very small part of it. I just want to solve for the part around digital marketing and websites, so that you can go focus on everything else. So I see a part of myself in these entrepreneurs, in these founders, where they can come to Ploy. They can essentially have the digital marketing figured out for them, so that they can go do the other things that excite them. And if they can entrust me, and entrust Ploy, to do the website and the marketing part, that's awesome, because that means that I've freed up their time to go focus on the business.Link

LubaI like getting to know how people's definitions of success have changed over the years. So comparing yourself five, ten years ago and now, what is success to you now, and what was success to you then?Link

BryantMaybe back then it was just, like, hey, just getting from zero to one. And I think, like, when we started to be successful, it was just, you're kind of, like, constantly in this, like, washing machine of, like, am I doing well? Am I not doing well? Is the business doing well? Is the business dying? But, you know, this time around, I have a bit more of a stoic, maybe, approach. You know, someone interviewed me the other day, and just, like, hey, you're, like, very chill.Link

LubaYeah. I just wanted to say, you seem very chill. But then at the same time, you were also working until, whatever, 1 a.m., 2 a.m. So there is definitely some quiet stress and fire going on.Link

BryantIt's passion, because I just, like, I love working on this thing, and I think it's so fun to build these products. So, you know, I don't know. I think it's important to have a certain level of stress in your life. You know, what am I going to do? Like, I'm too young to retire. My kids are still in school. I can't go traveling everywhere. My wife doesn't want to hang out with me all the time, every day. She has a life of her own. I was like, oh, shoot.Link

LubaYou have to find a spot for yourself.Link

BryantYeah, I've got to do something, you know? I can't just sit around. And also, I just think that we live in such an incredible place. Like, San Francisco is just the most amazing city. And to live in San Francisco, to be working in AI, I don't know, to a lot of people, to a lot of founders, that's just, like, the dream. And I really feel like I'm living it.Link

LubaAnd to wrap it up, what are you still becoming?Link

BryantI don't know if there's, like, something I'm still trying to become. I think there's just, like, you know, unwritten chapters that I can't even think about, what's to come. Like, I'm very fortunate. I have the health and happiness to continue working on Ploy. I still feel like there's a lot of really great life experiences that I want to have.Link

LubaAnything on the bucket list?Link

BryantI don't know. I've been just so fortunate. You know, I have a great family. I have great friends. There's nothing really that I could personally wish for. I think, you know, if Ploy turns out great, like, that's just really a cherry on top.Link

LubaBryant, thank you so much for your time. This was awesome.Link

BryantThank you.Link